Sadness of Open Days

[Gemauve]

So on the stand this morning at 0905, I was approached by a charming woman and her keen, enthusiastic daughter. It's the first university they're visiting, in fact the first university that either of them has ever been to, but they're really looking forward to ... and they reel off a list of good places. Daughter really wants to do our subject, and has clearly checked out the top places.

And what A Levels are you doing?

Ah.

Well, you can't come here, and for what it's worth, we're slightly more relaxed than the other places you've named and I know that you won't be able to go to any of them to do our subject or anything even vaguely related. I didn't say "and on past experience from when we were even more relaxed to the point that we might have admitted you, you would almost certainly fail, and the last cohort where we did that less than 5% of them made it to finals". Sorry.

"My school said these subjects would be ideal".

They're catastrophically wrong. Did you look at any prospectuses before choosing your subjects? No. And off they went, their hopes destroyed by 0915.

What the fuck are schools playing at? Why do they let children who don't have middle class parents get into this situation?

I am reading this and feeling unsure how to guide my ds who is about to start A Levels, he has chosen Maths, FM, Physics and Computer Science and at the moment wants to do Quantity Surveying (although isn't yet 100% sure).

It looks like that is a career that needs a specific QS degree but none of the Russell Group unis offer it. I don't know if I should leave him to us or suggest something different. I'm sure RG universities aren't the be all and end all but it feels like they almost are.

I was thinking of letting his Sixth Form college advise him but it sounds like that might not be a good idea.

Sorry, I'm a thicko. Can somebody take pity on me and explain what A-levels the kid OP talked about had taken & what course she was hoping to do at university afterwards (something to do with Business and ICT ?)

I keep reading OP's posts, but I can't figure out the answers.

I think the OP has been deliberately vague to avoid blowing her cover, but I assumed her course needs Maths A level. She has said it's not Economics.

OddBoots, your son's A level choices look excellent to me. If he changes his mind about what he wants to do that selection of subjects will give him lots of other options.

If he does want to do Quantity Surveying, and finds a good degree course, I wouldn't worry about whether it's on offer at a Russell Group university or not. For that very vocational kind of course, I would imagine what's far more important is the department's links with industry - placements, other ways to get work experience, people coming in to lead seminars/workshops who are practising surveyors and so on and so forth.

Oddboots, look into the Computer Science A level a little further as I've been reading that it's a very poorly thought out syllabus but I have no knowledge of it myself.

I thought it was ICT that people had concerns about?

Odd boots. My dh did a QS degree on the back of a BTEC in construction. He did his at an ex poly, day release from his first job (employers paid the fees). I'd say those choices look fine for Alevel but do consider the part time degree route - dh was far more qualified than his rivals once they had all completed the degrees due to his jobbing exp.

Gasp - I think Computer Science is good at GCSE level but not so good at A level. I think it was on here that I read that. As I said I have no personal experience but I made a mental note to look into it as it's a subject my ds is interested in too.

Oddboots - as long as the degree is accredited by RICS it should be fine. As a pp said industry links vital too. Have a look at Loughborough if you want to combine the above with a well thought of university, not RG but former 94 group - just as good.

Gemauve - not Eton but another absolutely top boys public school advised a pupil I talked to last summer that Maths, Biology, Physics and RS would be good for NatSci at Cambridge. Cambridge interviewed him and rejected him based on lack of Chemistry. Said boy got 4x A* and has spent all year at a crammer doing Chemistry A-level. How can top schools be unreliable when advising which A-levels for which courses?!

I can't blame the school there when the Cambridge Website itself says

"A Levels

Most students have at least three science/mathematics A Levels. The minimum requirement is two, but this will restrict your choice of Part IA subjects. In these circumstances you'll normally be expected to achieve A* in both of the science/mathematics subjects and encouraged to take an additional science/mathematics AS Level. The more useful combinations are:

A Level Biology, A Level Chemistry, and AS Mathematics or AS Physics
A Level Chemistry, A Level Mathematics, and AS Biology or AS Physics
A Level Physics, A Level Mathematics and AS Further Mathematics
See Part IA paper descriptions for specific requirements."

My aunt & uncle were horrified I was letting DD do a 'vocational' course, until I pointed out she would have a level 6 qualification. They then considered it an 'acceptable compromise'

However the fact that she will get on the course without any A levels totally blew their mind

Her career advisor at school, suggested that she do a Btec in childcare or catering first - in case her career doesn't work out

Good job I have faith in her abilities and was able to work out what actual qualifications she actually needed rather than the ones the school felt were essential

Thank you to those who have offered advise. DS is thinking of looking at traineeship routes too, it is hard to know what will be available at the time so he needs to think about university at least as a plan B.

He can't see an A Level that the college offrs he would rather do over Computer Science - the very low numbers of A* and A grades that seem to be obtained was worrying me but someone on another thread pointed out that it is a subject that may attract a broader range of abilities.

Re Psychology not being a science -DS has offers from Durham, Exeter and Bath for a science degree and Psychology definitely counts.

My OH's DD(16) wants to be a midwife and not a single adviser or teacher at her school knew it requires a university degree.

I think in the case of the Cambridge natural sciences and which subjects one ought to choose - the pupil in question obviously could have taken chemistry, which makes a big difference.
It wasn't a case of his school not offering it, for example, which doubtless they would have taken into account without necessarily penalising him.

He must have chosen RS (is that religious studies? Possibly they viewed that as a slightly eccentric choice) instead of chemistry, and then, crucially, been unable to come up with a plausible enough reason when asked in the interview "why did you decide not to take A Level Chemistry?"

I was asked a similar question at my own interview, way back, but managed to successfully defend my choices, somehow. I do think the school in question should have warned him that it was likely he would be asked that sort of question, and to be prepared to explain why he had made the choices he had.

But if you talk to any admissions tutor for Nat Sci they would tell you that not having Chemistry is likely to be a huge problem because of the restrictions it causes for IA choices. I was told this by multiple colleges twenty odd years ago. A student from a poor school may still be accepted for Nat Sci with a less than ideal combination of subjects but not one from a "top" private school.

BTW this list quoted above suggests that students only do 3 A2 but again (even twenty years ago) virtually all physical Nat Sci had Maths, FM, Physics and Chemistry and many bio Nat Sci also had four A levels too.

I think Computer Science is good at GCSE level but not so good at A level

The new syllabuses are much better. The problem is that it's sometimes very badly taught, because there are few school teachers with decent CS qualifications, but it is getting a lot better. You need to check actual facts, rather than rumour, and in the limit check with an admissions tutor, because the situation is changing very quickly. The key point is that with a few exceptions, it's neither necessary nor sufficient to get onto a selective computer science degree, which almost all want (or at least strongly advise, and therefore most successful candidates have) maths.

Then why aren't Cambridge more transparent on their own website? The entry requirements section of a university website should contain the same guidance that admissions tutors would give to those who have the chance to talk to them.

I thought it was ICT that people had concerns about?

For any remotely selective university, ICT is a very, very weak option. It is almost completely worthless for computer science, which comes as a shock to some people, and will often be rejected (or at least seriously disadvantage an applicant) even as a third A Level for other courses.

For any remotely selective university, Business Studies is a very, very weak option. It is almost completely worthless for economics, which comes as a shock to some people, and will often be rejected (or at least serioulsy disadvantage an applicant) even as a third A Level for other courses.

Anyone taking both has ruled out pretty much any degree at any selective university, either because they will not be taking the required subjects, or because their application will be very weak, or both.

OddBoots the new Computer Science (to be precise: Computing) A level is well thought of, to the extent it is recommended by many top universities as a 'desired' A level for entry. See Imperial for example.

Most will require Maths and prefer you to have Further Maths (but cannot require the latter as some schools don't offer it).

The Computer Science A level is a new syllabus from Sept (across all boards), as it is in the first tranche of A level reforms. The syllabus has been updated to include more Maths and to be more rigorous.

You can see the new syllabus for each exam board on their websites, if you're curious about what it covers.

York says similar:

"Whilst we do not specifically require you to have studied Computing at A-level, we are delighted to accept students with this qualification and would encourage you to apply. We also recommend the new OCR or AQA GCSEs in Computer Science/Computing, so that you can gain a grounding in the principles of Computing, though this is also not an admissions requirement to any of our degrees."

Thank you Impostersyndrome, that is really reassuring.

Thankfully having just questioned him DS has a good idea of what the course involves (in his case it does seem to be called Computer Science not Computing) as he has this book for his specific board and has started flicking through it ready.

Katymac - I don't think your dd's school was wrong to suggest back up options 'just in case'. That's responsible, sensible advice imo. Anybody can have a injury for example that derails plans or simply struggle to succeed.