Sadness of Open Days

[Gemauve]

So on the stand this morning at 0905, I was approached by a charming woman and her keen, enthusiastic daughter. It's the first university they're visiting, in fact the first university that either of them has ever been to, but they're really looking forward to ... and they reel off a list of good places. Daughter really wants to do our subject, and has clearly checked out the top places.

And what A Levels are you doing?

Ah.

Well, you can't come here, and for what it's worth, we're slightly more relaxed than the other places you've named and I know that you won't be able to go to any of them to do our subject or anything even vaguely related. I didn't say "and on past experience from when we were even more relaxed to the point that we might have admitted you, you would almost certainly fail, and the last cohort where we did that less than 5% of them made it to finals". Sorry.

"My school said these subjects would be ideal".

They're catastrophically wrong. Did you look at any prospectuses before choosing your subjects? No. And off they went, their hopes destroyed by 0915.

What the fuck are schools playing at? Why do they let children who don't have middle class parents get into this situation?

I think 1 in 3 get Tonmeister offers, so given that you get 5 choices it's a good ratio. They'll all have at least G7, if not G8 in one or two instruments at Merit or Distinction, plus maybe a G6+ music theory hence the large number of UCAS points. If your dd is doing the right subject combination littleham I'd thoroughly recommend it- in fact I think I might have on another thread!

Just to check I am understanding these posts correctly. If a young person isn't sure what career they want when it comes to UCAS time but that they have done Maths and related A levels and done them well then a straight up maths degree at a good university will open the maximum number of career doors?

I'll be honest, I would have advised away from straight maths and would have suggested engineering, economics or computer science instead as they sound more useful and practical.

I've always assumed History of Art was reasonably well thought of. It's early days for DD, (just sat her GCSEs) but one of her ideas is a History of Art degree then a law conversion course. Does that sound reasonable? She is an A*/A student but an Art obsessive and might ultimately be unable to tear herself away from doing a Fine Art degree.

No one seems to suggest doing a pure biology degree instead of medicine! Similar rationale!

I'm always struck at the mums at the school gate, lots with pure degrees trying to find work, yet know lots of accountants, medics and other vocational trained mums in work.

Most medical school graduate applicants will have a Biomedical science as their 5th option on UCAS (only able to put 4 Medical Schools). A pure Biology degree is in likely to get you a graduate entry place or even Undergrad place at Med School. In fact it's not even an A-level requirement for many.

*unlikely

Headofthehive - the medicine analogy is completely false. There's a defined pathway into medicine, which is going to medical school. That is the only way to become a medic. Obviously you can do a degree in eg. NatSci or Biological sciences beforehand, but that doesn't confer any particular advantage.

Law, accountancy, journalism etc require a professional qualification, which is an adjunct to a degree in most cases. There is no inherent advantage in studying the subject at degree level, and there may be a disadvantage in the case of eg. journalism or accountancy. NONE of the broadsheet journos or magic circle law or accountancy partners who were my contemporaries at university studied journalism/law/accountancy at university. A couple of friends who are now QCs did do law at univ, but they definitely didn't do it at A-level. Most of the people I know who read law at uni are now working in unrelated fields.

And as I said, lawyers who can do science are rare as rocking horse shit (most lawyers have humanities A-levels, so won't have any post-GCSE science). A high-quality Biol/Chem/NatSci degree followed by a law conversion course makes you much more interesting than someone with just a law degree.

I'm not saying that vocational degree courses (medicine and possibly law are exceptions) are not worthwhile. And even degrees that are not particularly high-status may be the right choice for some students. But if you look at the Establishment (senior partners in Magic Circle law and Accountancy firms, editors of national newspapers), that is not the background they have. And if you are committed to widening the profile of people who enter the Establishment (capital E), then it is somewhere between frustrating and heartbreaking to watch how very systematically students from non-traditional backgrounds make or are guided towards choices that will ensure they don't reach that level.

Obviously there are exceptions. But look at the CVs of senior barristers, city lawyers, Accountancy partners etc and tell me that I'm wrong.

But there seems to be a trend for the most able students doing pure degrees and then a masters in something more vocational. I think keeping your options as wide as possible, for as long as possible, has to, on the whole, be a good thing.

Bunch of sad Ponces I wouldn't want to mix with anyway.

Yes you did thanks titchy. She likes the whole idea of this path but time will tell. Depends how she copes with the Physics at A Level.

Goodness knows if she will get those grades (A*AA seems a bit steep ) but she will be doing Maths, Physics, Music and German. She has two instruments at Grade 7 (one distinction, one merit) and will be taking the grade 8's (one Autumn / one Spring). She now has someone outside the comp. to teach her Grade 8 music theory.

Maybe this one could be her 'aspirational' choice. One in three sounds like it is worth a shot doesn't it? Sounds like they interview for this course.

Doing a masters is all very well, but funding is not so easy. A graduate conversion in law costs: my parents would not have been in a position to offer any help.

So are there no loans available for a graduate conversion in law? (I'm suddenly thinking there are gaps in my knowledge of which I was not even aware).

I suppose there is a defined career pathway for lots of health professions e.g. Pharmacy etc if that's your particular interest. Doing a first degree does not give you any advantage there either just three years older when you finally enter the jobs market!

The idea is to get your future employer to cough up for your law conversion course and LPC. If you can do that you're laughing but it's easier said than done.

I don't know about the loans situation now but I know in previous years a friend tried to get one and was not able to. I think funding for post graduates degrees is not easy. there used to be career development loans but I don't know if they exist now.

There will be loans for masters from 2016
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30293964

So is it less competitive to go down the straight law degree route? Are there specific vacancies available where employers say, "We are looking for kids with good degrees and we will pay for a law conversion course."

Yep loans up to £10k for masters degrees next year. For those just graduating, who paid the higher fees introduced in 2012, there is a very high chance of being given a fee-free place on a Masters starting this September.

Large city firms will pay for conversion and law school. As will a few of the most profitable chambers (bar school here). Though some stipulate where you must study (usually London).

But most students pay their own way. It's frighteningly expensive.

tinkly yes.

Look up magic circle law firms. Or largest firms in the city. Their websites will tell you what's on offer financially.

And don't forget large US law firms with offices in the UK. Their financial help is often very generous (they're used to people needing help).

Loans for masters won't cover post-graduate diplomas such as law, see page 20/21 of

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/416243/BIS-15-185-consultation-on-support-for-postgraduate-study.pdf

The latter is a consultation document but it is unlikely that the funding will be extended beyond the courses discussed in this document.

Some banks do give career development loans for postgraduate diplomas in law. The government funding will be targeted at courses which don't attract career development loans i.e. courses required to access PhD programmes for those who wish to do research.

In general getting a training contract for law is very difficult, even without getting the firm to pay for the law conversion course. This is part of the reason why many law graduates don't carry on to practice law (particularly those graduating from weaker institutions.)

I'd start your own thread Tinkly tbh. There are loads of lawyers who can give you great (if slightly doom-laden) up to date advice but they may not be on this thread.

My advice would be that whether your DD does law or Art History she'd still want to spend her first year building the perfect cv to attract the perfect work experience to attract a job offer and funding for her 1 or 2 years vocational study so she might as well do a degree she loves. But my experience is decades out of date and I haven't a Scooby what actual legal recruiters would make of an art history degree so you need to find the right people on a thread of your own.

404 I know plenty of Big 4 partners with accountancy degrees. And plenty who have other degrees. And some who don't have degrees at all (but they are all on the verge of retirement).

Oddboots - maths is good for some things but physics can be too - apart from physics itself many go into financial careers, or the other direction into more theoretical aspects of engineering.

If a young person isn't sure what career they want when it comes to UCAS time but that they have done Maths and related A levels and done them well then a straight up maths degree at a good university will open the maximum number of career doors?

Maths graduates go into a very broad range of careers, yes.

But choosing to study maths to keep lots of career doors open would be pretty silly: you have to want to study the subject for 3 years and you also have to realise that maths at university will be pretty hard, bearing little relation to maths at school.

Actually the latter relates to the comment that "engineering, economics or computer science sound more useful and practical". Modern mathematics courses include statistics, probability, financial maths, applications of mathematics to engineering and other sciences, operational research,... all of which are pretty useful in the real world. Theoretical physics is also part of maths courses, and theoretical physicists are in very high demand both in finance and elsewhere.