UEA or Exeter for History?

[boatashore]

My DD is torturing me herself trying to decide between UEA (History) and Exeter (History and International Relations). Does anyone have any words of wisdom? We live abroad, so visiting isn't possible. She likes the look of both courses equally. The added wrinkle is that the UEA offer is unconditional if she firms, and DD suffers from an anxiety disorder that sometimes leaves her paralyzed in exams. Taking the pressure off exams is hugely appealing, though the Exeter offer should be well within her reach. All thoughts very welcome!

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This is undoubtedly because she is living in the cheapest halls there are

We had a policy of, when choosing first year halls, to go for middle-of-the-road. No trying to keep up with the Jones. No no-fun flatmates having to exist on beans. Just MoR people like us to house share with in following years.

My impressions are that Exeter is overrated - it tried a weird trick this cycle of making offers on a par / exceeding the very top universities, in a brazen attempt to bump itself up the league tables.

UEA on the other hand is often underrated, and offers some really solid courses. Sounds like the unconditional would be a blessing too, God I would have loved one of those for DS, A level year with an A* offer was streeeessssful.

I don't have a horse in this race, BTW, mine didn't apply for either institution.

I think Exeter just doesn't want to be the insuree Tviokh, along with almost all other decent unis. Bad call though, these silly two A* offers - just seems to have pissed people off. So many varied policies at all the same sort of unis though - thus Durham won't look at near misses if they've only insured, whereas some other similar unis look at the field as a whole. It's a minefield, and the websites don't give a hint at the complexity. Best not to overthink it maybe, and hope for the best.

Agree with molio. My DS ( ex state grammar school) is at Exeter . In cheap halls so thankfully with reasonably 'normal' people. Obviously lots of private school students there but he certainly doesn't feel inferior or worried by them! Not very concerned really,(despite having had years of me banging on about how unfair it is about disproportionate amount of privately educated pupils at 'top' universities blah blah blah....)

Private school is fine, obviously. Rich is also fine, obviously. But rah to me denotes a derogatory term for arrogant types who behave in a pretty vile way. That's a whole different thing altogether. This is an old anecdote but in my time at Durham one of these types (and there were a number) bought guinea pigs from the market place and roasted the meat for a dinner party, not letting on until people had eaten. He's well known now, and thinking about those poor guinea pigs who should have been pets still makes me very angry, and sick. Most of the behaviour was less pernicious - driving cars into the Weir or whatever, but still fairly lame.

I referred to Exeter being the best option based on their entry requirements. This is a reasonable assumption to make. It may well be an over rated university but obviously the fact they can make A* offers would suggest there are plenty of students after the places, in my opinion. The fact that they require higher results at A level and this can be seen as a method of selecting the best university by a student, in my opinion. Therefore it was a reasoned argument. I did also say I knew lots of people who have been to Exeter. All from boarding schools and our local grammar schools. I will remember, in future, to say "in my opinion" about everything as I am not a VC!!! Ha!! I am proud to say I am a Mum. The sort of person Mumsnet is for, in my opinion!

Hi Molio thanks I understood you weren't directly commenting to me sorry, should have said my comments were generally addressed too! (DS home for a bit so brain is addled)

I still think that the issue re the OP is that there isn't a "wrong" or "bad" choice here! Both UEA and Exeter generally excellent for humanities -- it may come down to the difference in course content, or the city, or the certainty of the offer. But I don't think either could be a wrong choice.

A great position to be in, even if it doesn't feel it!

Boatashore
DSA is Disabled Student Allowance and it covers conditions like anxiety and depression as well as physical or learning problems. You apply through Student Finance England if I remember rightly, but there is a lot of stuff on the web. Not sure if you have to be living here to apply: this is something you would need to enquire about as there are a lot of exceptions to the initial 3 yr residency rule.

Support can range from provision of a laptop with specialist software, recorder for recording lectures, different exam conditions - but also and really importantly a mentor trained in supporting people with depression etc, who meets the student regularly throughout the three years of study. This has been really invaluable for my DD, to have someone who has got to know her well and has been a kind and supportive mentor. Especially in her first year

I know you can't visit in advance, but have you tried looking at each town on Google Earth? Both are beautiful, neither course is second-best. [I work in a history-related field, having dealings with both, and have been to conferences at both.]

I think I prefer the UEA campus as it has a beautiful lake with 'natural' walks round it and places to have a barbecue, whereas the Exeter one is a bit manicured with lots of flower beds and shrubs - depends what you like. Exeter is hilly, UEA not flat but full of baby rabbits.

Good luck with whatever you DD chooses

Thanks for all the responses. Chimney's assessment that there isn't a wrong choice is reassuring, especially as she's a senior academic, as are the comments by NiceCardigan and Copperas about their DCs' experiences of pastoral care at UEA, Goldmandra about how nurturing she found Exeter, and all the comments from former students and parents of DCs at Exeter and UEA who all seem to have positive things to say about their institutions.

I'm new to MN and lived in Canada for years, where pretty much everyone sends their kids to the local school, so I find it interesting that the discourse on rahs/public/independent school kids is so heated. Even if they make up 33 per cent of the student body, which I think they do at Exeter, that would still make them a minority. Could they really set the tone of the university? And surely not all posh/public school types are arrogant, entitled twits who lack a social conscience (anyone else old enough to remember AnthonyWedgewood Tony Benn?).

Thanks for the advice from thecalicocat, senua, and GentlyBenevolent about looking at cheaper accommodation for a greater socio-economic mix. That makes sense. There's not a huge price differential at UEA, but at Exeter there is quite a spread.

One thought on Coventry and Essex because I've just read an article about Yanis Varoufakis. Getting a 2:2 degree from Essex hasn't stopped him from becoming a Fellow at Cambridge, teaching at top universities around the world and becoming Finance Minister of Greece (not a job I'd envy, mind you). There are so many elements that go into success. I suspect self-confidence, charisma and determination are probably more important than the undergraduate institution. And none of DD's choices are big enough international brands to mean much for her future prospects.

That said, the pernicious rankings are hard to ignore, even when you know they are BS not measuring anything you care about, and even when you know your DC is more likely to go to the moon than end up in the City. Certainly, it's something DC's classmates all talk about, and I think it may be the chief reason she is hesitating to firm her unconditional. She chose her courses carefully, so she really would be very happy doing either. If she decides on UEA, I will share Tviokh's comments with her.

ragged you asked about why IR, what it means for History and how it could link to Medicine. I think it's because DD has lived in a handful of countries, has friends who come from just about everywhere and is fascinated both by the past and how it links to what is happening in the world today. Looking at what's going on in Crimea, the Middle East, North Africa and the roots of many conflicts... it seems like a pretty good fit. I think that the analytical skills and ability to measure the value of source material that she'll get with a History (or IR/History) degree will stand her in good stead in many fields. Medicine? She also loves biology and very nearly applied for that instead. We have doctor friends whose first degrees were in literature. 18 is young to be making decisions about who you are and what you'll do for the rest of your life, and there aren't a lot of jobs for historians so she's likely to need to find something else.

Copperas that's brilliant information about the Disabled Student Allowance. I'll see what I can find out about it, though she won't meet the three year residency allowance we have lived in the EU for eight years, so maybe that will count. DD has had an amazing sixth form tutor this year who has helped her navigate some very choppy waters, so I know how valuable having a mentor would be, especially in the first year, especially when it hits her that she's a plane-ride away from home. It's also encouraging to know that you work in a history-related field (and that there is work in history-related fields!) and that you think both courses are good. DD has actually seen both campuses we visited last summer but there weren't students around, and she wasn't able to get to the offer holders' days when she would have gotten a much better feel for the universities and departments. DD does love bunnies. Maybe that should be the deciding factor.

For the choice? Since all anecdotal (and other) evidence seems to point to both options being good, once she has looked through the courses, university facilities, activities etc again, if she is still on the fence I think I will push encourage her to go for the unconditional offer and move on. As Tviokh said, it's a blessing.

Apologies for this ridiculously long post and thanks for all the input. It really is helpful.

Exeter also has rabbits. And a lake. Hilly is an understatement.

OP, my DD will be getting DSA for anxiety based reasons - she's just been told her application has been accepted. If your DD chooses Exeter please feel free to PM me and, if my DD gets the grades she needs for Exeter (she will know in June I think) we could suggest that they arrange to meet up. No guarantees that they would get along of course but it might be nice for your DD to feel she knows another student in advance.

Boatashore
what a lovely response!

Boatashore

there aren't a lot of jobs for historians Not all historians are going to go on to work in related fields, as with any Humanities degree it is the intellectual skills gained as well as personal qualities, experience etc that make a graduate employable in a wide range of fields. I happen to think that my career in Marketing was a history related job, and even went back to uni because I realised that when I tried to do my job in a country where I didn't fully understand the historical and cultural context I was at a serious disadvantage. As you say your DD has plenty of time to develop her ambitions, the key thing then is to equip herself with the skills experience etc that will make her attractive to employers, uni careers services will help her with that process.

And surely not all posh/public school types are arrogant, entitled twits who lack a social conscience Of course they aren't, its a stereotype. My DDs friends who although from private schools are more down to earth, had a great time at Exeter, made good friends etc. As others have said it's a good university in a lovely place. However as with any part of society there are subcultures and Exeter does attract a certain private school subculture, partly because it is near Salcombe AKA Chelsea by the sea where some spend family sailing holidays. They report they can be a minor annoyance whether because they may or may not at worst be arrogant entitled twits or just dress in silly red trousers and tweed and turn up to lectures in pyjama bottoms and slippers. However the good thing about that subculture is that they are exclusive and attracted to certain halls etc. and as Milly would say "a continuation of Boarding School!!!!" so easily avoided. Plenty of advice on that on student room. I think that that popularity with a particular subculture, along with evident attractions is why Exeter punches above it's weight in terms of entry standards etc.

I wish your DD luck, this time last year we faced this decision making process with my DD who also suffers from severe exam related anxiety, though arising from Dyslexia / Dyspraxia. In the end she didn't take the unconditional offer because she really wanted another course but I fully understand the temptation. She is now getting brilliant support by the way, for the first time she is amongst people who all "get" her and that is helping her anxiety, and generous help via DSA.

Actually - and I speak with genuine knowledge here - it was only when Exeter made a concerted effort to look beyond that subculture that it started its meteoric (imagine an irony smiley here) rise up the league tables. The high offer grades have always been present in a few departments, historically far stronger than the uni as a whole, at present they are being used because they don't want to be anyone's second choice. This stems partly but not wholly from a desire to further drive up standards.

Incidentally the pastoral care, particularly for SEN issues, but also in a range of other ways, is excellent at Exeter.

Sorry to hijack OP but purely out of interest was Exeter always a uni popular with that sort of subculture, in it's 1970s / 80s incarnation at least? I used to play fixtures there, admittedly netball not Lacrosse and didn't notice it particularly compared to some other unis we played. When my DDs started highlighting it to me I assumed it was something that had grown up with that particular 21st century incarnation of the subculture, we didn't have obnoxious hazing rituals / have to put up with sexist "banter" in the bar either........ maybe I was too busy staring at the St Luke's Rugby teams thighs

The fact remains even the most stimulating rigorous well taught courses can't demand high grades if there isn't the demand, in the long term at least, and that is a part of the demand for Exeter, perhaps more focused on social than academic life, that other unis particularly UEA (which isn't going to appeal to the students wanting a big city nightlife either) would not have. Demanding high grades does not necessarily have a perfect correlation with quality, demand is also a factor. I don't know UEA's course but it is certainly a possibility for OP to consider that requesting lower grades / making an unconditional is related to lower demand arising from factors other than the quality of course. Certainly for DD's course Exeter was demanding higher grades than where she ended up even though the course was not as highly rated on any other measure, objective, or subjective.....

And I would also say that I was impressed with the level of SEN and pastoral support at every uni we visited, and being dyslexic myself and at uni in the 70s, 80s and last ten years I know what to look for. It became a zero factor in the decision process. In fact I have been disseminating the material we were given to other parents with SEN children to use to bash their schools over the head with. If only you could rely on the same level of support and understanding to enable them to get to uni in the first place ........

I knew Exeter in its very Sloaney days. The rahs were a significant minority, but there was a majority of normal students and no need to engage with the Sloaney stuff unless students really wanted to.

I still have contacts there and it seems to be a university working very hard to be current, and highly ranked, and supportive.

I haven't got any knowledge of UEA, except to say its campus is not as nice as Exeter's.

Yes Exeter was supremely Sloaney in the 80s. A Cambridge friend of mine was the brother of possibly the Sloaniest set there in about '86 or '87 and a whole load of them descended on my mother's little seaside house once, where the brother and I were spending the weekend. It was/ they were grim.

Thanks Copperas

Goldmandra, if DD chooses Exeter I will definitely be in touch. It's always good to have a familiar face, and I might need someone to hold my hand electronically in the early weeks!

Poisonwoodlife, it's interesting to hear about some of the factors behind Exeter's popularity that might have little to do with the courses or the university itself.

Your comment about how your DD is finally amongst people who "get" her strikes such a chord! It's shocking how many so-called educators in every country we've lived just don't get SEN issues and think anxiety is an excuse for laziness or inability.

That said, DD has been blessed by some amazingly perceptive and professional teachers who "get" her and therefore are getting the best out of her. It makes such a difference.

I'm so glad to hear that all the universities you looked at seemed more clued in than schools. Are the materials that you've found available electronically or are they only in hard copy?

GentlyBenevolent. It's good to know Exeter has great pastoral care and bunnies! Clearly, whatever the reasons are behind its high entry requirements, it is hugely popular and students are meeting their requirements since there are very few places in clearing, so it must be doing something right.

In any case, I am truly starting to believe that there is no bad choice here, so will sleep more easily and see if DD can come up with her own reasons to decide.

I might need someone to hold my hand electronically in the early weeks!

I know for certain I will and my DD will be staying in the same country!