History of art at university

[sittingherebymyfire]

My DS want to study history of art at university. Has any ones DC done it? Where? And why did they chose the university/course.
He's currently considering UCL, Courtauld and Glasgow.

I studied History of Art, Design and Film. It was an incredibly interesting degree and I loved it.

That said, if I hadn't chosen to do a PGCE afterwards I'm not sure I'd be employed now!

I did not say, at any point in this debate, that young people should not study what they want to study. Indeed my DD did H of A modules on her year abroad and loved it too. My DDs do not study accountancy or engineering so I totally understand people should do what they are happiest doing.

I just felt it prudent to say, and indeed others have pointed out too, that not everyone works in this field after their degree. However people who are passionate about art might want to. The people I know that have done this degree do not need to work and a lot of the employers know this degree attracts this type of person, so starting salaries are low and internships, for free, are very common. If your DS was eventually not wanting to work in this field, then it does not matter one jot about how wages are lowered by rich people being able to work for pocket money, especially in London. If he wants to follow a career in this field, then it can be tough going when a person working for free might get preferred. It is a pretty long slog to get a PhD and sometimes people turn to more lucrative careers because they need to and H of A was three years of doing something enjoyable. There are many parents who do not want their children to be living on the breadline in London squatting in other people's shabby flats whilst they try and get that elusive job of their dreams. That is why people do teach, become accountants or go into law. They don't want that type of life. We all know young people are living at home for longer and it is because their wages are so low. Maintaining a decent standard of living, away from home, is very difficult and impossible if you are earning the lowest wages. We all have differing views on what are acceptable sacrifices in following a dream.

Milly You still miss the point, lots of students can't afford to do the unpaid work experience / internships in all sorts of fields. That doesn't mean they cannot do paid jobs in related fields that help them get their feet on the ground in London, and into a career.

And continually plugging the example of the stereotype of Sloane's working in Daddy's friend's gallery isn't really reflecting the more complicated picture, in particular I can think of not a few parts of the art world where someone who fits that sort of stereotype would be held in utter contempt, and living alternative lifestyles in hipster parts of the East end would be de rigour. It really isn't helpful.

We are all agreed that History of Art is a solid academic degree that will open doors to many careers. The Courtauld is a specialist institution and as such has a particular concentration of those whose main enthusiasm is art and who will pursue a career in it, whatever that takes, rather than wanting a traditional student life, leading to a degree and perhaps another career later.

You are putting words in my mouth. I dont think I miss your points. Yes, of course there are jobs, but they are hard to get. It is such a shame you perpetuate some sort of class war when you reply to me Poison. I have a DD who is very familier with East End arts scene, inciidentally.

I think it shames us a nation that anyone, whatever their background, is held in utter contempt by others if they are well educated, willing to do a job and a decent person. The term Sloan is also horribly outdated and, the way you use it, it stinks of class bias and, worse, prejudice. It is such a shame you continually villify, and plug "Sloan" as a stereotype, whilst thinking the people you describe are somehow not worthy as human beings. You almost spit the word out on the page! Of course some students might know people who own an art gallery. So what? How many people reading this have not given work experience to a friend's child if they possibly can? Do you really think helping out a young person is only done by richer people? We surely need to accept that all people can contribute to society, whatever their background, rich or poor, or we are not a forward thinking, inclusive, society.

What you have failed to understand is that lots of parents do want their children to get a job that pays well enough to have a decent standard of living. Doing low paid work, is not an option for many.

Milly what I was pointing out was that the world is a little more complicated than you convey via your experience, which do rather pander to the stereotypes, whether you are aware of it or not. I would never dismiss someone who was educated, willing to do a decent job and a decent person, whatever their background, and especially if they have the determination to make themselves qualified for the job they want, and search out the opportunities. I certainly wouldn't disincentivise them by saying it's dominated by those who don't need to work, when the reality is considerably more complicated, especially if they are willing to be flexible. These are clever young people perfectly able to analyse the environment and where the opportunities lie, and how best to equip themselves to exploit them.

And no in an increasing number of companies and work areas they are introducing processes that stop people doing their friends and relatives a favour, because they want those opportunities and resources to go to those who are best qualified and most likely to result in recruiting the best candidates. Both my DH and I are regularly approached by the children of friends because of where we work /worked (geographically and the sector) and all we can do is point them to the opportunities and how to how to best equip themselves to exploit them.

And "Sloane"as I have linked you to before is very much a current stereotype and one that some students, obviously as with every stereotype a minority in practise, do seem to embrace.

I'm sadly not surprised at the type of comments that a thread simply titled "history of art at university" has generated. I didn't ask who does it or what the career prospects were, I simply wanted to know where and why a particular course was chosen. This is very sad IMO and perhaps a reflection on our society that many believe studying art is not considered particularly academic, doesn't equip you with an skills an employer would value and that it is only suits those who won't need to work because careers prospects are poor so you need to have wealthy parents in the background.
If I'd asked about studying history at university I very much doubt I'd got the same response but ultimately there is little if any difference in terms if academic rigour.
My DS has been studying history of art A level for about 8 months although his love of art goes back to even before he went to school. He has changed enormously since he started, a typical boy in that he's a reluctant reader he now reads with enthusiasm lots history of art books, he's required to give regular presentations, not only has his vocabulary expanded but so has the clarity of his diction and his intonation, his skills of description, explanation and analysis have come on in leaps and bounds, he's more confident. A regular visitor at museums and exhibitions he talks with passion and enthusiasm about all types of paintings and for me who has little knowledge makes them come alive. To put the paintings into context he has to have a knowledge of history, politics, religion and so much more. But most importantly I think is that art has given him an inner satisfaction, he's had a couple of upsetting events occurring in his life recently that we're troubling him but since studying art he's significantly less troubled, the beauty and wonder of the paintings he's looking at have seemed to helped heal his wounds.
To those who've been so helpful many thanks.

OP how lovely to hear about your son's enthusiasm for HOA. I agree there is so much more to it than some people realise. If he loves museums and galleries, I'm sure he would love London. And UCL is fantastic, plenty of opportunities to study history, language and literature modules. Good lunch in his uni choices.

Luck not lunch!

I did as as a joint honours degree with History at Edinburgh University in the mid-90s. It was a great course - very interesting - and I loved it. The teachers were all real experts in their periods of art and the facilities at Edinburgh, plus the four art museums in the city, meant there was great art on the doorstep. You're also encouraged to go down to London and spend some quality time in the museums there and visit relevant exhibitions.

My main concern as a parent is that it doesn't lead to much in terms of a career, unless he wants to work for an auction house or to be a curator or something like that. To be a curator would, I think, require additional study after his degree. Personally, I think they'd be great things to do, but its very competitive and not very well paid.

I would definitely advise, if he's sure about studying it, that he does a joint honours with something else - probably a language (Italian or French are the most obvious ones), as this would be most likely open more doors for him.

Wow - I'm disgusted at some of the comments on this thread

I studied Art History (with Mediaeval History) at St Andrews. It was hard work requiring a huge knowledge of the historical period in general that the art being studied was in. (Hope that makes sense, have been up with a newborn all night). However, it was an interesting and rewarding subject. I considered the museum studies course after, but could nt afford another year at uni. I did a PGCE in primary teaching. I am thinking of combining my teaching experience and Art History by working in the education department of a museum/gallery. (I live in London). I think Glasgow would be a great place to study AH as it has a rich artistic history. As people have said, you can combine two subjects at Scottish unis, I started with Med Hist only and added Art Hist in when I got there.

juneau thank you I too am disgusted by the comments negative comments on here. I was just trying to be polite but you're right I should have been more our spoken.
MissLivvy cosmic thank you you've given us both food for thought. cosmic good luck with your future plans and the baby.

If I'd asked about studying history at university I very much doubt I'd got the same response but ultimately there is little if any difference in terms if academic rigour.

I would argue that history of art is more complex methodologically than straight history. It is such an interdisciplinary subject. You need excellent historical research skills, but it also draws upon theories and methodologies that are used in literature, philosophy, psychology, sociology, anthropology, even neuroscience. You also need to be (or become) particularly articulate in order to analyse and write about a visual object using language. Methodology modules in art history are very challenging. The skills that students develop are very transferable.

My main concern as a parent is that it doesn't lead to much in terms of a career
Read my post earlier in the thread. Plenty of career are available to art history graduates. The same as any other humanities graduate, plus more besides. I've been teaching for fifteen years and have yet to hear of any graduate of my department standing in the dole queue or working for minimum wage like some of the posts above seem to suggest. It is now a fact of life that many careers require some kind of postgraduate qualification. History of art is not exceptional in that. The Chancellor announced additional funding (in the form on loans) for postgraduate study earlier in the week, on the basis that in the not-too-distant future, one in seven jobs will require a postgraduate qualification.

sittinghere - your son sounds like an excellent applicant for a History of Art degree. I hope he finds the right course for him. Feel free to PM me if you'd like any advice from a lecturer's perspective.

Sitting, I had planned to write much the same post as you.

There is potentially a debate about the value of humanities degrees, as opposed to STEM and things like accountancy and finance. However assuming there is consensus that education in itself has value and that a humanities graduate will have gained valuable analytical skills, I cannot see why History of Art is being singled out, compared with, say, English Literature or History. Certainly going back to times when the majority of the population were illiterate, art was a key form of communication.

In terms of employment, I guess the chances of employment within the field are as limited as an English Literature graduate wanting to working in publishing. Whatever label is attached, there is a problem. Like the recent debate about acting being dominated by public school boys. Sons of two neighbours graduated from Oxbridge about 5 years ago heading for the creative professions. One has had an early break and was included in the Evening Standard's recent list of 100 young Londoners to watch. The mother of the other is delighted as her son finally has a (lowly) paid part time job in his field. She says his friends are also struggling, particularly as they dont have the option to save rent and avoid poor accomodation by moving back home. At some point, if he does not get his break I assume he will do a law conversion course and, given he is bright and has family contacts, become a sucessful lawyer. Its hard enough, but easier if you have money and networks.

In short OP's son has clearly decided to follow regular MN advice and study a subject he is passionate about. Additional advice, which she had not asked for, is that if you want a career in the same subject you need to be hard headed, determined, and ready for the long haul. London would offer more scope in terms of contact making and volunteering opportunities.

It seems that it doesn't matter what degree you do these days, it's still hard for lots to get a job in their chosen field. There are many many graduates in working in places like Tesco etc.

I hope I am not going to offend anyone and I don't want to derail the thread if OP is not wanting to go down this road but just to expand on the point that if a DC wants to get into a career in the art world rather than another career path (which History of Art is in no way inferior to other Humanities degrees in qualifying for,) the reality is more complicated than the stereotypes suggest. Careers in art are not confined to working in an auction house or curating, and certainly not to people from a certain background. The art market in London, although obviously affected by the recession, has expanded and diversified massively in the past thirty or so years, partly but not entirely on the back of the YBAs, Emin and co, and the increased attraction of art to high net worth individuals on an international basis but also in the alternative art world and models of artistic production they started in the East End. It is now a much more significant activity in the UK economy. It is manifested in the increased popularity of art fairs etc. There are new models of marketing as well, and a whole publishing industry thriving on the back of increased awareness of art and design. Lots of tangential opportunities into web content, marketing, publishing etc. etc. and overlaps with fashion, entertainment etc My DDs' peers who did Hof A are exploiting a wide range of opportunities that throws up, maybe temporary, maybe administrative ,but paid and generating the contacts that, providing they have impressed, can lead to the sort of career they want, even if they are not sure what that is yet. I do think they have to be flexible and be prepared to build up CVs, but that is true of many career fields. Other possibilities are careers in policy in government and non government organisations and in the field of corporate responsibility (another activity that has expanded in the past thirty years, it is no longer just Boards selecting some nice pictures, but the development of meaningful strategies to add value in cultural terms) These are just examples, it is incredibly diverse, as they will tell you when you visit the universities and they share their past student's stories.

Obviously UCL and the Courtauld put you in a good position to start getting to know that world in London but there is a regional dimension as well and many of the courses will tell you that they are actively cultivating their contacts to get students opportunities.

Thank you poison for presenting a positive picture and future for HOA graduates. As you say life is tough for graduates from a wide variety of disciplines but there are opportunities out there as well.

Sorry if I am the one who has disgusted everybody. OP, you did asked why someone chose a particular university in your original posting. Job opportunities upon graduation are important for some people, if not you.

Very many discussions go off topic and I am sorry to have been the disgusting person on this thread who clearly said some very offensive things. It is slightly worrying that you think an honest debate about a particular degree is disgusting. What words do you use for someone who murders someone else? Proportionality has been lost.

It is important though, to understand, that using derogatory terms, even if they are in common usage by one's children, is not a reason to keep using them and saying that all people of this description are identical in work ethic, intelligence and ambition. There are many derogatory terms still used today we would all abhor, so just because a term is in current use, does not make it acceptable. Would other terms be so freely used on this web site? I doubt it. I'm done with this!

To support MillyMollyMamma - She is just pointing out that it will be tough to get a job with a HoA degree. Just because this in an unpalatable fact does not mean you should shoot the messenger! Anyone embarking on university education and 9k per year fees, should do so with eyes wide open, I think.

It will not be tougher to get a job with a History of Art degree than with any other humanities degree. In fact, there will be additional opportunities for art history graduates compared to, say, history or classics graduates. I am not sure why people are so convinced that this is a subject for people that don't want to work. I guess Kate Middleton has a lot to answer for! However, I teach the subject and I can tell you that girls who do not want / need to work are in a very small minority.

And Albrecht, these young people are perfectly able to consult unistats etc. when considering their investment to get an objective perspective rather than relying on subjective prejudice perspectives

In fact some interesting ones

UCL Graduates in work after six months Overall 80.7% History of Art 85% English 88% Maths 80% (with 15 % actually unemployed, three times the level for the other subjects)

History of Art at other unis

Edinburgh 85%
York 90%
Courtauld 90%

Obviously a more complicated story behind the stats, my personal perspective on the Maths statistics is of graduates who thought Maths at UCL was a route into the financial sector and were somewhat naïve about the next level of selection / didn't equip themselves for a very competitive market and also, particularly if they pursued pure Maths modules, burn out, it is a very very demanding course.

And as a former recruiter of graduates I don't especially worry about employment stats that much, you would not believe the poor standard of some of the applications you get, whether out of naivety / a sense of entitlement. If a graduate really thinks through what they want to do, how they are going to equip themselves with relevant skills and experience and market themselves to employers, and Careers Offices are very proactive in enabling them, then they will be amongst the positive percentage.

Ok maybe "disgusted" is a bit strong but I do find the comments sad. I'm particular that HOA is 1. not particularly academically rigorous, 2. that it's basically a cushy number, 3. that it's mainly taken by "Sloany Gals" (do these people really still exist in 2015?) who don't need to earn a living because they're going to work in daddy's friends art gallery and 4. because a degree in HOA is not seen as academically rigorous, is a cushy number and taken by those who don't need to work employers dont regard it very highly. Are they're any other gross generalisations anyone one else wants to add?
I sadly know little about art but as a graduate with a degree in a conventional academic subject anything I have read/lectures I have attended on the subject of HOA not only do I find really interesting I feel it's a credible academic subject requiring lots of different skills and a wide ranging knowledge of other subjects.
I'm not under any illusions I'm sure it's harder to find employment after doing a degree like HOA than if you do engineering but as my DS doesn't want to study engineering or anything similar it's academic.
I was interested in course content, quality of teaching etc. and why a particular course was chosen.
People are obviously entitled to there own opinions and to go off thread if the wish and I have read all comments posted very carefully and thought about everything that's been said and I'm grateful for all those who posted and PMd me.

Sister went to courtauld got a first has an amazing career in arts world. State school

I studied at the Courtauld at both BA and MA level. Although it was some time ago that I studied there, I continued to work in a related field until recently and the Courtauld's reputation academically is still fantastic. Classes are small, relationships with tutors are close, and students benefit from access to some of the greatest galleries and art libraries around.

When I was there (mid-90's) it was still very much a finishing school though, and as a state-school girl from a single parent family I felt very lonely and marginalised a lot of the time. That was just my personal experience though, and things have probably changed a lot since then. If the traditional student social life is important, it may not be the best place to go. Again, this may have changed, but we didn't have a bar or even a functioning branch of the NUS. We could use ULU, but it was quite far away.