Where do we go from here?

[queentroutoftrouts]

My DD is predicted BBC in her As levels studying geography, business and english language, she has her heart set on going to university and is hoping to apply from september for next year.
I know she will probably not be eligible for a place at a russell group Uni as her grades are not high enough but what other options are there as far as non russell group uni's? Can she go to a non Russell group Uni and still be employable? She is trying her hardest to improve her grades but if she achieves her predicted grades which courses would be the best? Would she possibly be able to get a place on clearing at a better Uni with these grades? We have been looking at Greenwich and Nottingham Trent, what are the reputations of these Uni's like? She is interested in a business or geography degree but i am just trying to help her figure out which is the best way to go.
Sorry for all the questions, this is all so confusing, thanks.

Apologies again for snapping at what you wrote, It just hacks me off that some people are so glued to only seeing one good path thru education & life.

I would sometimes suggest to a potential student that their planned course doesn't justify the debt. However your daughter has decent projected grades and can get a degree that would help her find a job. You might like to use the which search tool university.which.co.uk/courses which has average salaries on graduation as a starting point. There are sessions for parents at university open days and you mght like to attend some.

Mumsnet sometimes get obsessed with city jobs and London lawyers when there are plenty of other jobs around.

queentroutoftrouts Don't get too hung up on RG unis, it isn't a mark of quality but of a group of research based universities that came together to lobby government, it has become a lazy shorthand for quality. There are some very good academic universities that have better courses than some courses at RG unis. You will find some of the latter requiring, or accepting in clearing, BBC . Grades required tend to reflect demand which is not entirely linked to the quality of a course, some students will apply because of a universities name or the clubs. In particular some former polys run very good courses with links to industry and a focus on vocational skills that make graduates very employable. People in mumsnet land sometimes forget that BBC are good grades, still above average and especially from a chaotic school, you should be proud of your DD, so the problem is really finding the course that is best suited to your DD's needs.

Lots of advice here on finding information. She would also be a candidate for fair access courses, day sessions etc for those from state schools. They are designed to compensate for the poor support in some schools, for instance taster days that enable students to get advice from the universities themselves. Look online at local unis / the ones she wants to go to, this is for RG but it gives an idea www.russellgroup.ac.uk/uploads/Access-schemes-to-Russell-Group-universities.pdf Also bear in mind that if her school is a disaster area universities may take that into account in considering her application, specific schemes at Leeds and York and others are mentioned in the link, her school should be encouraged to own up but actually admissions officers, especially those who are local often know or can tell from the quality of the reference.

The school is in special measures so should we state this on her application or would it look like too much like making excuses for her?

I just wanted to say, when I was teaching (a couple of years ago) at a university that wasn't Russell Group then but is now, I had a couple of students whose grades were similar to your DD's predicted grades, and they did just fine.

I totally agree with others that the RG label isn't terribly important and lots of very good universities aren't in the RG, but I wanted to say that to point out that a B is still a sign of an able person with ability.

Schools with terrible GCSE pass rates (I don't know exact threshold, maybe < 30% with Eng+Math), their pupils get special treatment (boost) in some Uni applications. Just how bad was the school's 2013 or 2014 GCSE pass rate?

Take a look at this - www.telegraph.co.uk/education/leaguetables/11374651/A-level-school-league-tables-2014-compare-your-schools-performance.html#search/A/1

The Average point score expressed as a grade is interesting - our local school comes in as a C. A percentage of the sixth formers end up at Russell group universities, but most go elsewhere & take some really employable courses with links to industry / employers.

I have just done a quick search and found that it says on ofsted that in 2013 it was in the lowest 20% of similar schools results and in the bottom 40% of all schools. The pass rate of gcse a* to c including English and maths was 34%.

Probably not bad enough to matter, but worth asking university admissions officers.

I've seen it said on university admission pages that you might get a slightly lower offer if your school is in the bottom 40%.

I would definitely ask the school to highlight the issues in their reference, I am not so sure you should waste words on it in the personal statement. The link suggested some universities offer the opportunity to submit a separate statement of special circumstances. Most universities would have some system of flagging up disadvantage of which a poorly performing school would be one criteria, along with poverty, SEN (Dyslexia and similar), carer responsibilities etc. and might make a lower offer taking that into account. It is worth making sure they are aware of the problems. It is certainly something you should explore with Admissions Officers at Open Days who will be very positive about facilitating fair access.

Is it a school that is on the list where a lower A level grade offer will be made? Some university websites have links to the list. This might widen your choices OP. There are also some subjects where offers will be a bit lower, eg sociology, some MFL, so look around for alternative courses to school subjects.

Does she realise that without Chemistry she won't get on to Physical Geography courses?

Whoever said this is talking rubbish too

I went to a RG uni and got BBC at A-level - I did end up doing History rather than English through clearing, but I don't think those predicted grades would automatically rule her out?

I was a lazy toad and got a 2:2 and have always been employed in a competitive, popular industry

DS2 got BBC after retakes, went to a non RG but long established university, got a good 2:1 and is now doing very well on an MSc course at an RG university.
Sometimes you might think from the postings on MN that the only places you can go to are Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, LSE or Imperial with at least A*AA.

I went to University before the Russell group had been invented.

It is frankly neither here nor there because there are some REALLY good courses that the RG are unaware of.

Heriot Watt's Urban planning and Property Development Bsc wants BBB but it's a fairly new course so they may give lower offers. It sounds like it should lead to a cereer at the end and can be done as a sandwich course. If she's interested in urban geography it could be good. The uni has a good reputation and few Scottish unis worry about RG.

Don't get hung up on the RG status OP. Frankly, there are some crap courses at RG universities.

That said, don't get sucked into the (defensive) mindset of many that a degree from anywhere is cool, because someone went there in 1991 and is now a swinging dock in the city.

IMVHO as someone who teaches at two different universities ( and who has taught free lance at others) there is a lot of crap out there.

Courses that exist to part a student from 9k a year, devised by people with no recent experience of anything except parting students from 9k per year.

These days you need to be very canny about where to go. You need to get as much bang for your buck as possible.

That said, given your DDs school is in special measures I think she may very well get a contextualised offer ( lower offer to take into consideration her disadvantage).
The school need to flag this up very loudly in their reference!

Many universities list a likely contextualised offer on their website along side the usual offer.

i am always surprised that student debt would be even considered a deal breaker. for one thing most people don't pay it all back, for another thing even of you do, for tuition you are looking at 3 x £9000 .Thr price of a couple of new cars .

I'll deal with a few points in no particular order...

With the fact that her school is in special measures, you should make sure that

• this is mentioned in the reference
• you check each uni's contextual data policy (that's the technical term). In some cases she may be given a lower offer, or they may look twice at her application.

However, it's not a free ticket to a place - if I'm honest, she's still at a disadvantage compared to someone with slightly higher grades at a much better uni.

You don't need chemistry to do a physical geography course. Some unis (including RG unis) don't even require A Level geography.

For employment stats, have a look at the www.unistats.ac.uk website, which will allow you to compare various quantitative data sets, including career prospects (the data for the career prospects is drawn from the DLHE survey, in case you're interested). As others have said, going to a non RG does not make you unemployable. It would make life much harder if she wanted to go into a few careers, like law, but there's no sign of her wanting to do that anyway.

Have a look at the WhatUni website, as that will allow her to search for courses by A Level grade requirements.

Geography is a subject that is studied at school, and it's one of the more popular courses because it's an obvious choice that everyone has heard of. If she went for one of the less obvious but related courses (environmental management, disaster management, environmental science, geology, development studies, sustainability etc etc) then she'll often find that entry requirements are lower than for a geography course at the same uni, even when there's a lot of overlap between modules. Similarly, if a course is brand new at a given uni that year then applications tend to be a bit lower and so they can be a bit more lenient with grades (but there's no easy way to search for such courses!).

She could also have a look for geography with a foundation year, which would be a year longer than usual, but a few unis offer it (thought
STEM foundation years are more common tbh) and it might be a way for her to get into a uni that wouldn't otherwise have been available to her.

She could try one of the Scottish Universities, Heriot-watt has a good record in business degrees, a campus in the countryside and easy access to Edinburgh city.

Stirling is also excellent although a bit more rural.

You've had a lot of useful information about geography. I'll try and add something about business.

Generally business degrees are 3 years long. There will be some that offer business with something else eg business and psychology, business and finance, business and French etc.

There are also increasingly 4 year degrees. These tend to include a year in industry or a year abroad. If she does a language element then she could go away to Germany, France, Spain, Italy for example and do a year there. Increasingly too there are places that do it with china, Hong Kong.

Or she could do the year in industry which is like a gap year but she could get a job for about 40 weeks of the year. These jobs will be related to what she wants to do so she's not going to work to make tea but she will be involved in say marketing campaigns, social media, writing reports, HR appraisals, etc. so real work so to speak and she will be paid a proper wage for that industry. So I've had for example students who worked for big American banks, multinational firms in the uk and elsewhere.

I would suggest that if she does go for a business degree that she goes for one with links with industry and do the 4 year option. I'd say 90% of my students who did the gap year graduated with a first or 2:1. Something just clicks when they are out at work and they return to their final year at uni much more motivated, more matured and know what they want.

Good luck.

OP, what about Sheffield Hallam or Lincoln. Both are in great locations and, presumably, not too far from you.

I have three DC in uni and another going next sept. DC1,2 and 3 go to RG Unis but DC4 is going to a non RG Uni. I've been really impressed with the non RG Uni's that I've looked at with DC4.