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Higher education

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Do some top ranking universities discriminate (not give offers) because they are oxbridge applicants

121 replies

fairycakes333 · 25/02/2015 11:17

OK I know what I am saying will be highly controversial and debatable. It really has only come about got us thinking. My dd applied to Oxford declared her module UMS on her application this itself I assume would give a inkling to other universities she applied to that's she is Oxbridge applicant. She was rejected post interview. One of the other top uni she applied to who requires AAA subsequently also rejected her. She achieved all A's in all the modules with high UMS average. She took the rejection quite well was gutted but got over it as she felt the course is competive (not medicine by the way) anyways and there would be many applicants with her type of grades. However she has subsequently found out on student rooms that quite a few applicants have received offers with a lot lower AS grades as her and GCSE to this particular university and have applied after October 15th. Obviously she's a bit peeved but makes us wonder whether some of these top flight uni are marketing themselves as only wanting top students but in reality are only wanting those applicants that have a higher percentage of firming them, as I would expect that say someone who has achieved AACC would firm AAA as it would be their highest offer. Universities that are offering courses with high grades I'm assuming again would never be a Insurance so top uni would have to be quite sure who they choose to offer places and that they will firm them only makes sense, its as though they don't want to take the risk of giving too many offers to top students as many will have applied to other uni with similar oxbrigde entry requirements. My dd has already got a offer from RG uni AAA requirement she loves and is probably going to firm them although she is still waiting on another uni with A*AA requirement. So my question is do some of these top uni play a game of hyping themselves up as being super selective to boost their reputation. My dd wasn't the only good academic applicant who got rejected from this uni there has been quite a few on TSR same course. I don't want to say which uni don't want to out my dd but its a top 7 uni.

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Needmoresleep · 26/02/2015 17:04

Love it. Chimney is one of my favourite MN people. Why a man? I always saw her as one of those super organised, sensible and intelligent women, who I can only but look up to.

PiratePanda · 26/02/2015 17:08

But apparently, need more, you and I would throw ourselves off cliffs like lemmings if Chimney asked us to, so we're not objective.

Think it's time to let this one lie.

Pokeymont · 26/02/2015 17:08

Fairy is your DD counted as a home student for fee purposes?

fairycakes333 · 26/02/2015 17:42

needmoresleep we didn't want dd to apply to Oxbridge in the first place got a stubborn child, as we not that long settled find new house school new country and to be honest we don't think its right for her at this time and space, too many changes and Oxbridge is short term too much pressure and I not sure her English would be good enough don't want her to end up unhappy too fast of a pace and end up dropping out. Much prefer her go to a slower paced uni where she can thrive and enjoy the culture. Dont think she is a strong character to be able to handle so much Maybe she can apply for MA there when she's older. Thank you for all the handy uni tips I can give her so hopefully be a smooth transition

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fairycakes333 · 26/02/2015 17:45

pirateyeah I'm going to join you at the cliff with needas I'm warming to him, find him quite endearingSmile

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fairycakes333 · 26/02/2015 18:00

pokey dd will pay home fees she was born here but because of hubby job we always moving back and forth dd ended up schooling in my country of birth as hubby spent more time there than UK but we moved over here permantly 2 years ago as hubby got moved to UK office.

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titchy · 26/02/2015 18:04

Please check her fee status fairy - where she was born and what passport she holds is irrelevant. Normally students need to have been EU domiciled for three full years in order to qualify for Home fee status.

UptheChimney · 26/02/2015 18:14

And for 3 years not in full-time education, as far as I know ... It's complicated: do check with the university. Where you are born is mostly not relevant if you're not domiciled here.

Pokeymont · 26/02/2015 18:19

Fairy. You will definitely be asked to fill out fee status assessment forms.

UptheChimney · 26/02/2015 18:26

And gosh Blush thank you to kind posters. I know I sound stern, but Im not really. My students weep all over me & I give them motherly pats on the shoulders (you can't hug them even though they need it).

fairycakes333 · 26/02/2015 18:59

Eeek!! State of panic really??? Oh crap so may need to pay uni fee upront and maybe more than 9k?? Dd holds a EU passport but not lived in EU country. I really need to sort this out??? So basically born in UK, 2 year resident EU passport not relevant So needs to be 3 full years. So worse case can't get tuition loan? Pay up front is that right?

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UptheChimney · 26/02/2015 19:14

It's tricky: from what I recall when dealing with Admissions at the coal face, if you can show an ongoing relationship with the UK (eg a parent in the Armed Forces or Diplomatic corps so sent overseas a lot) then this can be enough for 'domicile.' But I think that one of the main tests for this is that you need to show you've kept a home in the UK, for example.

Non-Home/EU fees are nearer to the real cost of most degrees. I know in my field, the £9k doesn't cover it (what covers quite a lot of the teaching is staff doing 50-60 hour weeks).

chemenger · 26/02/2015 19:22

The worst case is paying overseas fees upfront, at least until you reach three years of being domiciled in the UK. Overseas fees can be much higher than home/EU. It's worth getting some proper expert advice on this, speak to the Student Finance organisation (I'm not sure of the exact name in England).

titchy · 26/02/2015 19:40

Just to add once your fee status is set it remains the same until you finish the course. So if for example you have only two years domiciled you can't pay overseas fees for a year, then having had an extra year of domicile, change to home fee status. If she's had two years already but won't qualify for three full years in September then maybe look at taking a year out and working.

Pokeymont · 26/02/2015 20:33

If you (or your DH) were working overseas on an expat contract with the UK as 'home' then you should be ok. Fee status is based on a common sence approach - how often you visited the UK, did you maintain a house in the UK, etc.

Did your DD come to the UK on her own or did you all move here at the same time?

I don't know how common it is but I think non home fee paying students are sometimes offered lower offers. I know one person who this happened to so you would need to check if it's true.

If your DD is applying to certain courses (eg medicine or nursing) then she would be competing for a limited number of places reserved for overseas students.

Pokeymont · 26/02/2015 20:42

INFO ON HOME OR OVERSEAS FEE STATUS HERE

Each university assesses their own applicants and uses their own forms. I had to fill them out for all of my DC. A lot of universities ask for this to be done early in the application process and often before making offers. It's ridiculous that it's not dealt with centrally Confused. I have been told by admissions staff that their have been cases where students were classified as overseas fee payers by one university but as home fee payers by another.

I think Some universities send out fee assessment forms to anyone with an international passport.

fairycakes333 · 27/02/2015 12:05

Oh my what a day!! rung student finance, seemed like forever before they picked up, rung ukcisa thanks pokey for link to them. Basically there saying need to be living in uk for 3 years consequtively by Sept 2015 and not for education purposes. Then we rung the school as they did ucas with dd as I remember she only took her passport and that was it the application went through. Then the head said she sure that dd will be 3 years in uk in June as she did 1 full year gcse so started in 2nd year of gcse but she did 2 exams when she came over in june 2012 in the summer which would be end of gcse 1st year. She went back abroad for 3 weeks in the summer to properly say good bye to her friends. So technically can say she came over in June we exchanged house contract then too. I'm really hoping they don't catch us on technicality as she did go back for 3 weeks, so they might be mean and say she begin life in uk in Sept cutting it a bit fine!! . Dh is contacting his place of work as when we was abroad they paid for dd schooling they had a scheme in place to help staff children, he's hoping they may have something???? that would help dd if at worse we have to pay overseas fees as Dh was posted back here permanently as his office had been mothballed to shanghai so choice was latter or uk, they would have paid for dd uni fees if she ended up in shanghai. Not sure for UK as now it's permanently located job. Because ucas app went without a hitch I'm guessing uni she applied to are fine with her status? Would they contact us later on about it?
Is overseas fees negotiable?? Do they have to be paid in one lump? Installments?? At times like this I wonder should dd have gone to boarding school in uk when she was 13.
Titchy, pokey, chemender, upthechimney I am eternally grateful for all this help on uni fees. Knowing now means we can plan ahead and be able to have some contingency in place should the worse happen. DD doesn't want to defer she says she is ready to go to uni don't want spend a year she has no plans to what to do in that time.

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titchy · 27/02/2015 12:08

Sounds like she was domiciled here from June 2012 then (the three weeks she went back was only a holiday, not to return to living there) so you should just about be OK!

TweeStuff · 27/02/2015 12:24

It sounds like you will be fine. Don't worry about the three weeks holiday as long as she moved to the UK before Sept 2012 she should be ok. When was the date of your DHs appointment to the UK office?

Btw if you had sent her to the UK for boarding school it would not have counted as she would have been sent to the UK 'for educational' purposes.

I don't think you need to worry about trying to be seen as 'expat' it's not nessecery as you will all have been living in the UK for three full years before her uni course starts.

I'm sure the university will contact you about her fee status. Some contact you before making offers and others contact you afterwards.

I honestly don't think you have anything to worry about. Your DD has lived in the UK for over three years - that is all that matters.

If you apply for student finance then they will also ask you about your fee status.

I think I've filled out about 15 lots of fee status form from various universities - which was fair enough for DC 1 and 2 but completely pointless for DC 3 and 4.

SansaUndercover · 27/02/2015 12:34

fairycakes It sounds like your DD will be fine for home student fees, but sending her to boarding school would not have made any difference, as she would have been considered only resident in the UK for purposes of education. It's likely she would have been informed if she might be considered an international applicant when offers were given (although this is not always the case).

WRT your original post, when applying to competitive courses at top universities, you have to accept there will be some rejections. The vast majority of applicants will have a strong academic profile, PS and reference, and the university have to differentiate somehow, and different universities have slightly different systems.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that top universities that don't interview sometimes put more weight on the PS than Oxford will. You mention your DD's English in one post, so I wonder if there were some minor issues in her PS that might put an admissions tutor off? For most universities, the PS is the only bit of written English they see, and some universities might use this to judge the candidate's standard of English.

Ultimately, I do think some universities could be slightly more transparent with their admissions process, but equally, they can give whatever offer they like to whoever they chose, and different universities may have slightly different ideas about what they want from an applicant. Unless you have experience of universities admissions, this can be a bit of a shock- and it's generally why applicants are advised to NOT apply to 5 very competitive courses, even if they have excellent grades.

fairycakes333 · 27/02/2015 14:14

titchy I'm slightly panicking as we seems to have done things to where I don't feel too comfortable too close for comfort everything is kind of just made it on time. When I rung UKcisa and student finance I daren't tell them that dd went abroad for 3 weeks just in case they get us on that. Shouldnt have worried then. There's so much rules and regulation over here its been a minefield on lots of things. So we always wary of small print so much small prints!
tweestuff dh contract started on Jan 2012 we came back together I was looking for house but dd didnt come over tillJune her UK school was sending her books and work for her to do so she could do the exam in june. If she didn't do those 2 exams, she would only have 8 GCSE as the school she goes to do 2 early. Im So glad she didn't go to boarding then would have been worse definatley pay overseas fees. I think in a few days time I will feel better about things when the dust settles so to speak.
sansa I'm never sure whether dd English is up to UK standard since she was schooled abroad, school here had to do a lot of correcting, american english not so much grammar but spelling and not much creativity style flair, think its to do with style of teaching abroad, compartmental style model answer thinking. Although she is a lot better now has more confidence to think out of the box. Dh tells her she needs to be more outspoken, debate think out of the box ( but not like mum!)
I think half our problem we encountered with uni app here is that there seems to be this need to wise up be a bit clever do things a bit differently to stand out and it's not all about academics. Whereas the system I'm use to is to the other extreme academics is everything, grades matter if you are intending to into a professional career. Universities only really want students that will get the best classification degree and to them it correlates with grades.

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