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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Original poster

A*s and Oxbridge

123 replies

BrendaBlackhead · 14/10/2014 08:36

Does anyone know with any degree of certainty if Oxford and/or Cambridge really field candidates on the number of A*s? (Excluding low-performing schools/special case candidates)

I ask because this year ds's cohort did unexpectedly worse than they were expected to in some humanities subjects. The school is battling on with the exam board but no news yet.

It seems so unjust when in the year above 80% achieved A* for Eng Lit and in ds's year (which was apparently a more able cohort) only 40% did.

Also I see that some schools (particularly private) routinely go for remarks which seems unfair on those students/parents who are less informed about the procedure or even that you can do this.

Obviously if you have generally low grades then it's curtains - but if you have 6A*s instead of 7, or 8 instead of 9 it seems not only tough but unfair.

OP posts:
irregularegular · 20/10/2014 22:34

So strictly speaking it doesn't say that the schools don't offer it, but only that no pupils are entered - but that's still pretty shocking!

Molio · 20/10/2014 22:48

A slightly different take on the maths thing is the schools which enter vast numbers of kids for maths at A2 and whose position in the stats then used by unis are skewed by that.

Mostly SE superselective grammars.

duhgldiuhfdsli · 20/10/2014 23:08

but that's still pretty shocking!

Although if you're at a school with low numbers, your rational move would be to go to another school or FE college that has better numbers, and the school might help you do that. I think you'd need to look very closely at those numbers to see exactly what's going on. On the face of it, that there are only 79 schools that didn't enter anyone for maths is quite encouraging: how many schools and colleges are there that have or act as sixth forms? A couple of thousand? So 96% entered people for maths.

AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves · 21/10/2014 07:55

Yes, your rational move is to change to a better school/college. The reason I said right at the start of this is that it's an equal opps matter is because a young person from a less well-off/educated family attending a poor school is less likely to make that change.

  1. Fares might be an issue.
  2. Student and his/her family/friends not so clued up as to know a change is needed.
  3. Lack of confidence/aspiration to apply to somewhere better.

The lack of Further Maths is a separate, though related, scandal. I don't understand why the government doesn't require LEAs to set up a consortium of advanced skills maths teachers, so that in each local area all students who are bright enough can get teaching in Further Maths and preparation for STEP, with travel costs covered. Oh, wait...

duhgldiuhfdsli · 21/10/2014 08:25

The problems you outline won't be fixed by the tiny number of schools that don't offer A Level maths doing so. Lack of opportunity and aspiration is a much more complex problem that worry about the provision of one subject. The schools that don't offer maths also won't be offering other facilitating subjects, and the children that don't know to take maths won't know to take other facilitating subjects either.

Original poster
BrendaBlackhead · 21/10/2014 08:41

And it's not as simple as "go to another school/college". Many places only have one choice, or if there are other schools that are better - within a reasonable travelling distance - then they will be full of children who are in catchment.

And furthermore most parents will not move around the country seeking out the best school. I know some people do. In fact I have a relative who has made three house moves - naice rural CofE primary school, best grammar school in country, and then independent top sixth form. Yep, and now their dc is off to Cambridge. Most of us are not that dedicated!

OP posts:
duhgldiuhfdsli · 21/10/2014 09:19

Many places only have one choice,

I'd be interested to know how many places have only one choice for sixth form and that one choice doesn't offer maths. Schools in isolated areas tend not to have sixth forms in the first place, and assume that everyone will travel to an FE college in the neighbouring town. It's simply not possible to offer viable sixth forms with anything approaching a decent range of subjects from (say) a five form comp.

if there are other schools that are better - within a reasonable travelling distance - then they will be full of children who are in catchment.

Sixth form provision driven by catchment? That's unusual, to say the least.

irregularegular · 21/10/2014 09:19

I'm sure the solution in these cases is absolutely not "go to another college". Quite likely if a handful of students really wanted to do Maths these places would teach it - the problem is much more likely to be that the students don't want to do Maths because they've not been encouraged to do it. So those students are not going to go elsewhere! The problem is that the schools/colleges are not supporting the students in developing high aspirations or giving them the guidance to follow them. And obviously it isn't an isolated A-level Maths problem, it's a much broader problem, but the A-level Maths situation is symptomatic. I know 79 is small, but it really should be zero - I don't think any sixth-forms are THAT small - they wouldn't survive. The figures on sciences and the gender/area specific figures are revealing too.

titchy · 21/10/2014 10:08

You need to look a bit more carefully at that DfE report.

Of the 79 schools with no Maths A Level entries, listed is Charterhouse, a very sought after independent, several other independents, all of which offer IB only. Another is Coombe Boys who don't have their own sixth form (it's a federated sixth form with the girls school). There is also an agricultural college listed, and several FE colleges who presumably specialise in vocational qualifications. Another is a very small Plymouth Brethren indy, and a few performing arts specialist colleges.

duhgldiuhfdsli · 21/10/2014 10:21

You need to look a bit more carefully at that DfE report.

Do you have a link to it? I looked last night, but my Google-Fu wasn't working.

duhgldiuhfdsli · 21/10/2014 10:23

But that's very interesting, titchy. I didn't realise it was about indies as well. It's obvious that there are going to be many schools that don't enter for A Level if you include the indies, because of IB, Pre-U, international schools of various hues, very specialised post-16 provision and religious nutters. So what we're actually talking about is, what, about 20 schools that don't enter for A Level? Excuse me for not being scandalised.

irregularegular · 21/10/2014 10:35

OK, thanks - maybe not a very helpful interpretation of the original report by the Guardian!

titchy · 21/10/2014 10:41

Gotta love the Guardian!!!

duhgldiuhfdsli · 21/10/2014 11:41

I've started some analysis. Most of the schools which don't enter for maths, but do enter for other A Levels are either (a) tiny (sixth form of less than 20) or "comprehensives" in grammar school areas.

There are only 10 schools which enter for A Levels, don't enter for maths, have a sixth form of more than 20 and are not in obvious grammar areas (ie, are effectively secondary modern schools). And Reading and Knowsley might well be affected by grammars, I don't know.

There is only ONE institution that has more than thirty in its sixth form, isn't in a grammar area, enters for A Levels and doesn't enter for maths. ONE. Like most of the rest of those with 20 or more, it's a college specialising in FE mostly in vocational subjects. The only school I can see which has a >20 sixth form, does A Levels and doesn't do maths is George Green's School in Tower Hamlets. It appears to be transitioning to the IB.

So in total, there appear to be about sixty school, with sixth forms mostly of less than 20, who don't enter for maths.

If you take all the schools that do A Levels, don't enter for maths, and aren't in grammar school areas, their sixth forms TOTAL 791 pupils. Yeah, it's a shame those 791 don't have better options, but it is hardly a major problem requiring more than local solutions.

RandomFriend · 21/10/2014 11:51

Excellent analysis, duhglidiuhfssli.

fairycakes333 · 21/10/2014 12:48

my dd goes to a tiny non select school and
we found that gcse teachers are teaching AS/A2 save on cost probably the only teacher that is employed as temp not full time is the A level maths teacher. The gcse maths teacher can't teach it as not qualified enough to. Maybe because maths at A level requires more specialist teachers have more ability. I dont know wether other state schools/inde use there gcse teachers to teach A levels aswell. But if the maths gcse teacher was well qualified to do A levels aswell it would effectively mean all kids have access to be taught A level maths if needed. Again im being simplistic in thought in reality maybe not this easy. But its a thought.

AtiaoftheJulii · 21/10/2014 14:59

Reading does have two grammar schools (one boy, one girl), but they have a wide catchment and so don't have much of an impact on the dozens of schools their pupils might otherwise have gone to.

TalkinPeace · 05/11/2014 17:59

Some of the colleges in that awful Grauniad article are round here.

The head of Sparsholt College went on Radio 4 and ROASTED the report and the reporting of it.
She was backed up by the head of Southampton City College

too right.

Original poster
BrendaBlackhead · 06/11/2014 13:32

Sparsholt is a wonderful place, but probably not full of frustrated A Level Maths candidates and rightly so. In some ways progress has been very bad for the less academic. In the 1950s my grandfather's farm employed 50 people, many of whom were apparently not, er, A Level Maths standard. By the 1980s when the farm was given up, there were two full-time men and one roving milkman because virtually everything was mechanised.

Totally off the point of (my!) thread, but there's no point trying to argue that all are capable of what are supposed to be advanced levels, when very clearly they are not. So then you get posters (and I have seen a fair few) wailing that it's not fair that kids aren't allowed on x or y A Level courses, as if the courses should adapt to the standards of the pupils.

OP posts:
itsaknockout · 14/11/2014 13:10

A physics admissions tutor from Oxford spoke at a summer school DS went to.He said the at what they are not looking for is a hardworking all-rounder, they are looking for giftedness , flair and passion in maths and science.they don't care if you have climbed Kilimanjaro or spent 5 years volunteering every night with orphans.It is irrelevant

DontGotoRoehampton · 16/11/2014 15:18

Interesting about maths A level.
I am by inclination a humanities person. I did maths A level, and at every interview I have had, that is what they have picked up on and shown an interest in - more than my degree and postgrad degree in humanities subjects.

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