A*s and Oxbridge

[BrendaBlackhead]

Does anyone know with any degree of certainty if Oxford and/or Cambridge really field candidates on the number of A*s? (Excluding low-performing schools/special case candidates)

I ask because this year ds's cohort did unexpectedly worse than they were expected to in some humanities subjects. The school is battling on with the exam board but no news yet.

It seems so unjust when in the year above 80% achieved A* for Eng Lit and in ds's year (which was apparently a more able cohort) only 40% did.

Also I see that some schools (particularly private) routinely go for remarks which seems unfair on those students/parents who are less informed about the procedure or even that you can do this.

Obviously if you have generally low grades then it's curtains - but if you have 6A*s instead of 7, or 8 instead of 9 it seems not only tough but unfair.

I'm on the Arts and Humanities side of things. Subjects do vary. And within a subject, even though we all are all looking basically the same things, different colleges/tutors will inevitably make slightly different judgement calls. But remember that there is more and more transferring between colleges at different stages. I'm at a very popular college with a higher than average number of strong applicants per place and I've still " rescued" (and ultimately admitted) candidates that other colleges have decided not to recommend for interview. And every year I take someone after interview who was rejected by there first choice college.

Molio - I would say it is an average non selective large comp (not in the league of grammars). It is the very first year they have done a trip to Oxford. In the A Level History class, two got A's (dd was the highest) & the rest got much lower. No special class as such to help with the HAT - just a teacher who has kindly offered to help understand it in her breaks (again first time she has done so).

Completely understand that it is a gamble, but she really likes York, so hoping for an offer from them!

umm think my dd might be doomed her teachers never mentioned on her ucas her rank in gcse or AS even though she was the top in both, her school was a failing non select went into administration at gcse year, kids were leaving left right and centre understandably and so were the teachers some having to teach 2 subjects to save on cost. The school would never mention or disclose this as its not something to be proud about. We would have taken to dd toanother school but there just isnt any good state schools near us and the better independent schools was just too far and expensive. Think dd will be needing a lot of luck aswell as nail the TSA

No reason to think she's doomed at all!!!! If she's got the right A-level predictions and AS results that support that them she's definitely not doomed. The TSA would be very important whatever the rest looked like. And information about average results at a school is automatically generated by the system.

I've noticed some dreadful grammar and spelling in my answers, sorry. I am an Oxford tutor really! I'm just typing quickly on my phone and not checking.

thanks again irregular for saving my brain from another niggle forming

Northern - I'm sure I typed an answer once and it has disappeared! Your grade comparison would be a matter of judgement and reasonable people might differ. My gut feel is that usually the B and C would be worse but it would make a big difference whether they were for Maths/English or Drama/Textiles, say. I'd also be interested in the usual number of GCSEs taken at a school. In general I'd never count a lower total never of GCSEs against someone if they didn't have the opportunity to do more. I think doing massive numbers of GCSEs ( more than about 12) is misguided.

Oh and I meant to add that your daughter's grades are indeed impressive and certainly good enough for a strong application to Oxford. Good luck to everyone.

irregular you have a touching faith in the marking system which has lost the trust of HTs up and down the country by all accounts - particularly in the arts and humanities. Oxford and other universities too may have to be more flexible given the plethora of individual idiocies which recent exams have thrown up. Surely last year's A levels, which saw unusual numbers of Oxford applicants not making their grades, will give tutors pause for thought?

Huh? Not quite sure where you have detected a 'touching faith'?

If we thought the exam system was that good, we'd have far less need of aptitude tests and interviews. And a lack of such faith is the main reason why Arts and Humanities subjects at Oxford don't ask for any A* at A-level. But we can only make decisions based on the information we have and I don't think anybody would argue for ignoring examination results altogether, would they?

There were more applicants than usual not making their grades, but the numbers were still very small: 8.5% originally, 7% after re-marks. Not all of those were A-levels.

irregular 7% is massive! Especially given Oxford's relatively low standard offers.

I thought the A* wasn't used in the arts and humanities for access reasons rather than being dubious about the exam boards' awarding of top grades?

I suppose I've detected it (perhaps mistakenly:)) most in the post where you talk about a B grade at AS in even a non-core subject being perhaps not a show stopper but nevertheless a definite black mark.

Also, I wonder how you treat info about average results with schools such as Westminster or Tiffin? Obviously coming top of the class there is great, but being average is objectively impressive too.

Thank you Irregular. DD is first year sixth form and says she is not interested in applying to Oxbridge, so irrelevant for us. She is dyslexic, and so has struggled with essay subjects. A lot of hard work and some impressive progress in Yr 11 meant she achieved 7A*s and 3As. Nothing special in the context of selective private London day schools, but pretty good for her.

The fact is she appears to have a real talent for STEM subjects and is as good at those subjects as her classmates who got all A*s, and who almost certainly will be trying Oxbridge. I don't really care but MN posts which have my DD ruled out of, say, Oxford Chemistry because she only got an A in Art had me a bit baffled. As did the idea that DS' brilliant Korean friend might be disadvantaged because he only started learning English aged 13. Some wonderful writers struggle with maths and though some mathematicians are all-rounders, others are pretty one sided. Equally students who are at schools where the prevailing culture is not particularly academic, might only get into their academic stride at A level. (This was true of DH who suffered the 70s comprehensive idea of mixed ability teaching, but was "rescued" by Oxford with a EE offer, but also could be true of the clever boy in the recent episode of Educating the East End.)

I understand the need for filters. However hope the mesh is not so fine, that some more interesting candidates don't get seen. .

I reckon it is impossible to devise a completely fair system. Must be a nightmare for admissions tutors, especially somewhere like Oxford where they have such a huge number of applicants.

Out of interest irregular, is there a first filter where administrative staff bin the weaker applications before you see them?

No Littleham, there is no first filter at all. Absolutely all completed applications will be seen by a tutor. Unless there is something going on in other colleges that I don't know about, but I would be very, very surprised.

I understood that there were crisis meetings at some colleges irregular, so clearly some were taken by surprise. How many of that 7% did you decide to admit, out of interest?

Our school writes the references before results are out so I don't know what they do about Bs. Unfortunately they've therefore left out DS's history ums, which were 100/100. Too bad I suppose.

None of those students for any of those three years that I have just looked at were taken. Some were effectively replaced by 'open offer' candidates who had been offered a place but not for a specific college. We're bursting at the seams so we rely on a few places not being taken up to make space!

Yes, I was aware that there were not enough 'open offer' candidates in some subjects to go round this year. So I was actually quite surprised to discover that the position at our college hadn't changed at all! There is also a small but growing trend towards candidates (mainly international) either failing to get funding or choosing to go elsewhere.

Thanks for that irregular - that all seems very fair to me. I agree that schools over predict. I think it is through fear that their teenagers won't get offers otherwise. I got my dd2 to query her prediction, as I think it is a bit on the hopeful side, but the school said it was the best thing to do. It is a daft system really.

I'm in the very fortunate position that my dd2 has two joint favourites (& two she would be happy in as a reserve - one of which she is holding an ABB offer from), so I'm keeping all my fingers crossed that she gets her offer from York. Come on York!

She knows that her B at AS will count against her, so won't be surprised to be turned down by Oxford soon. I'll stay on the thread until that happens!

Surely it is very subject dependent?

To get 4 As in humanity subjects at AS is more of a challenge than 6As in Maths, Further Maths, Maths with Knobs on, Maths with Extra Knobs On, etc.

Probably Brenda - hence why different subjects make their own decisions and there is no single rule.

Hello All! DS applied to Cambridge for Eng Lit. He has a spiky academic profile on an upward trajectory so I'm not sure what to expect over the next couple of months. Meanwhile good luck to all your dcs with their applications.

Good luck to your ds too GraceFox.

Thank you. 8 A*s seems to have achieved MN status as an important benchmark, but this may be more for medicine. DD would have made it had she chosen something like ICT or electronics as her extra subject, but opted for art. She loved it, the teacher was great, and education has to be about wider learning not just grades. Looking back quite a lot of kids, who were at the top in Year 7, had faded by the time GCSEs came around. I assume there will be similar changes at sixth form with specialists overtaking some all-rounders. At the same time school performance can only be a rough indicator of University performance, and that Oxford and Cambridge will also see post-graduates who only hit their stride at University.

May I add another question. Why do schools like Westminster get so many Oxbridge offers, given the bar is set higher. (Consistently around 50% with 20-25 others going to top US Universities and plenty getting places on equally competitive courses in medical schools and places like Imperial.) My own observation is that it may be partly selection, especially in STEM subjects where they take in some very able sixth formers in addition to the ones they already have, and teaching. Small classes, some very good external speakers, and a culture where informed challenge is expected, should all help develop a good University student.

A lot of it is down to good behaviour in the classroom as well. You wouldn't believe the amount of lessons that have been trashed for my kids by complete idiots - throwing furniture, shouting out in class, sharpening improvised weapons, using mobile phones, running around, jumping out of windows, messing about, even setting fire to things! Poor teachers.

This has improved year on year as they have headed towards sixth form - peaks around the age of 13 - 15. My oldest daughter says university is lovely because everyone wants to work.