Son failing at uni - how to help?

[biker99]

I know there have been a few threads on this theme but will try to keep this as short as possible. DS high achiever at school goes to do economics degree at good uni (top 5). First year OK-ish, ends up with high 2:2 but marks don't count and put it down to adjusting. DS disappointed and resolves to work harder in Y2. End of year 2 and results are even worse - ends up with third. Upset DS but admits tried to cram for exams, not having done much work although some bits of course work were good (couple of firsts). Says he can't make himself do the work as he doesn't find it interesting but on evidence of being at home this summer spends a lot of time on computer gaming although he's adamant he has this under control. Has not got a summer job. Has talked about dropping out but now decided to go back and work harder.

I'm really not sure how best to help. I'm not convinced anything's going to change this year and he's likely to come out with a third or a fail. That's £40k of his money down the drain (he's taken out as much loan as he can). I can see a scenario next year where he comes home and just sits around with no motivation to do anything. It feels like he's in denial and I don't whether it's better just to get tough with him or just be there to give him support. It seems like he's really messing up his life and I don't understand why and I'm not sure if he does either. Would really appreciate some advice from anyone who's been through this.

Has he reviewed his exam papers with his lecturers?
You could be writing this about me. My parents insisted I got tutoring on the subjects I was failing, I met with lecturers, got direct feedback and had regular meetings thereafter.
He's got a year (and only an academic one) to turn it around.

Personally I was burying my head in the sand and denying two facts. I was coasting and had slipped so far behind in some subjects I no longer understood the lectures and had no way back.

If he were my child I'd be reading the riot act. Adult or no adult. It might do sod all but he can always move out!

I have 2 DSs who have economics degrees. It sounds as though your DS is probably rather immature ( not unusual for boys) and not too disciplined as regards work. To me your DS appears to be capable of the academic work but not sufficiently self-disciplined to maintain a reasonably consistent standard.
My elder DS did very little work for his BSc but was good at working out what needed to be done to achieve the desired outcome of a 2:1. It appears to me that perhaps your DS hasn't done this. Does he find some parts of the course difficult? Some find the Maths difficult, whilst others are good with Maths but not so great at reading and analysing text or writing essays.

Finds the maths trickier than the essays. Has got papers back but the uni explicitly says he can't discuss them with any if his tutors, which seems a bit crazy!

Another lecturer posting here. The rules operating at your son's institution seem bizarre to me (I work at a new university); there is no way anyone I work with would refuse to sit down and discuss an exam paper with a student, although we are told we can't give them back to the student to keep, so quite the reverse of yours. Also, he's unlucky in the 50/50 weighting of his course; that was the case for me as an undergraduate, but at my current institution it's 25/75 for 2nd /3rd year which supports the students who really buck up their ideas in the final year. However, you have to work with things are they are...

It does sound to me as though he has continued to think that his subject and being at university are just a continuation of A level work, when they are often very different. He has now got to play to his strengths. Ask him to sit down with you and go through the modules he has chosen for final year, and look at how that can be shifted towards essay-based and maths-light modules as far as possible, if that isn't already the case. Find out whether he can take any modules from other courses in his final year as options - my students are allowed to do this for one of their five modules, so if that applied for him he could try to sign up for a business module as one of his. His institution sound like they might be resistant to module changes, as they don't sound particularly struggling student-friendly in other ways, but get him to push it politely and as quickly as possible, so it can get agreed before the new academic year starts.

On the feedback question, I would want to push this issue of him not being allowed to discuss them with tutors. If he could go to the students' union and ask them if they are aware of this policy, and if not could they take it up with the university on his behalf, that might get him somewhere. It's accepted that you get less detailed/written feedback on exams than other forms of assessment but to refuse any at all is hardly good practice. He could mention to someone that he will be commenting negatively on that when he fills in the NSS (National Student Survey) in his final year.

I would also have a serious talk with him about asking for more help and guidance, and say that if he's not prepared to help himself it will affect the amount of support you are willing to give later on, as you're not going to be keen on bankrolling him after graduation if he could have done more to find out what is required of him while still studying.

Re changing courses, it might just be possible if they will agree for him to go into the second year of a business course. So you will have to pay for an extra year of him studying, but might get a better result. Don't count on this being possible, though, as some institutions (mine among them) no longer allow transfers mid-way as the first year modules are core to the degree you are ultimately awarded. It's definitely worth finding out though.

If that isn't an option, I would say he should finish and take advantage of the fact that to some employers, a 2.2 from a 'top' university will be perfectly acceptable. It annoys me that this is the case with regard to my own best students, who will be overlooked because of their institution though they are very talented and hard-working - but you may as well use that to your/his advantage. It would also help, though, to think about hobbies, interests or volunteering that would help him look like a more well-rounded person to prospective employers - i.e. someone who is a graduate but is more than just their degree. His university will almost certainly be able to inform him about volunteering opportunities and I would urge him to take up one of those. That might seem counter-intuitive given the academic pressures of final year, but it might also provide an outlet for him and be genuinely fulfilling. Sadly I don't think gaming as a major leisure time hobby is going to be that impressive on a CV so he does need to think about other activities.

Doctor, really helpful advice. His uni do not seem very supportive or student friendly. I think it was only a year or two ago that students were allowed to see their papers at all - I think it was the SU that swung that one. Before then they couldn't see them. We have also had to pay for them at £10 a shot.,

Although I can understand why they charge as it costs to do the copying and posting I suppose.

Hi biker.

Lots of good advice here already. I would suggest that you try to persuade your DS to think of his degree as if it were a job. He needs to work at it on a (roughly) 9-5 basis, just as he would if he had a full-time job. You'd be amazed at how many times I've suggested this to students and they've looked at me as if I was mad... but when I point out that they are full-time students, and should thereofre expect to work on their studies full-time the penny does (sometimes) start to drop...

There are (or should be) various resources which your DS can draw on, if he chooses, to help him: not just counselling and his tutors, but study skills courses, time management courses and so on. And, yes, he does need to get better at asking for help: it is, after all, what his tutors are there for (we don't just give lectures and then go home to bed... we are meant to be available to support our students). I understand the exam thing, as we don't give back exam papers either (I think because we're required to keep them for five years...) but we do go through the questions with anyone who wants to discuss them.

Whatever it says on the website, it is always possible, IME, for students to take a year out during their studies if they need to (usually for medical reasons, admittedly). But I'd only suggest doing this if you really think your DS is going to go back for his final year at the end of it. and if he's going to make good use of the year 'out'. If he's going to spend it playing on his computer, then he's better off going back to university and finishing his degree. Having got 2/3 of it out of the way he may as well finish, even if the course wasn't necessarily the one he'd have chosen if he had his time over again. Remind him that he can change direction and do things that interest him more once he has his degree, but having a degree (even a 2:2 - not a disaster, whatever some students may think...!) does open doors. Maybe he needs to think of it like doing that boring shelf-stacking job in order to save up to go on holiday - stick at it and finish the degree, even if it's not what he'd have ideally chosen, and then he can go off and do whatever floats his boat (within reason...).

Sorry, I disagree with Selks's comment: 'I wouldn't get too hung up on the degree classification thing - most jobs that require a degree don't care too much what classification it was as long as it is a pass (3 or above)'. Degree classification does matter - especially to get onto a reputable graduate scheme. Less so if he wants a small employer

If he is sitting around gaming he may not have the other experience a graduate employer is looking for. Could he be a bit depressed if he has done really well until now?

I don't think he is a grown man at all, he'll still need your support and encouragement - I'd encourage him to swallow his pride and talk to the careers service, student counsellors etc.

But it's not even "swallowing his pride" -- asking about stuff you don't understand is one of the important ways you learn.

I suggest he needs to get out & get a job. I'm not against gaming (my DS has a whole community of friends he games with all over the world), but spending all his time gaming isn't productive and will contribute to his negative spiral of feeling inadequate.

And although he may not be able to discuss the specifics of his exam papers, he should start the next academic year with a booked personal tutorial with a lecturer or his personal tutor, to go over the principles of the material he wasn't so successful with in his exams. I don't write any feedback on exam scripts -- they're a different kind of assessment: they are sudden death ways of identifying what you've understood and what you haven't. But he can and should use his exam scripts to identify areas of weakness or faulty understanding, and then seek tutor advice on how to improve in those areas.

I've ranted about this before here: as a personal tutor (amongst my other roles) I invite my 30 tutees to at least 3 one-to-one meetings each year. They can discuss their feedback with me, we can look at areas of struggle and strength, their CVs, whatever. Most of them don't even bother with the courtesy of replying to my emails. After 2 unanswered invitations, I don't bother.

So the support is there, so please don't imply it isn't -- but he has to take control: he can't be passive, and expect it to be done for him. That's the difference between learning and being taught, and it's the huge difference between university & school.

You know all this, it's clear it must be very frustrating! Can you show him this thread? recipe for World War 3--

So much good advice on here, but I wanted to add a couple of things.

Degree classificTion does matter for a range of future options, but that's not something you're going to be able to influence too much now - he's aiming for a 2:2 which will be good enough for quite a few options. And way better than dropping out with no result at all.

And has he chosen his modules for is next year? At this stage of his degree he should be able to tailor his course to more or less his interests and strong points. He may, for example, be able to choose a module from another department completely - many top unis will let you take a credit module from any other department eg languages. Or he can take policy oriented modules from the economics department - avoid the maths altogether ( like I tried to in my economics degree!) - take economic history or politic theory or similar. Or do interesting industry focused options like the economics of healthcare, or economics of the EU.

If he can get the enjoyment back, the work ethic might return .

I told my DC that school was there to help you succeed; University is there to let you fail. It is up to you to make sure that you don't!

If you look at recruitment, a lot of employers don't care about the subject you read - they look at the classification. That's because the classification is not a marker of how clever you are (unlike school exams) it is a marker of how much work you did. A good brain is no use to an employer if it's not actually put to use. A good classification says to a future employer "I am self-motivated. I can do things without other adults having to nag me. If you ask me to do a task then I will do it. If I don't know how to do something then I know how to ask for and get assistance."

He needs to learn that it is not a weakness to ask for help. If you look at great business leaders they always emphasise that they didn't do it on their own. They have a good team around them on whom they can rely, whom they can ask for support.

Radical solution:
Can you check out the rules about University finance btw? Even though the tuition fees are high, the cost of a degree is still subsidised (look at what they charge overseas students!). I believe that you are only allowed one bite at this cherry - you can only have one subsidised first degree.* Would it be a better plan to walk away from this now, with the degree uncompleted so that he can start afresh (but still subsidised) elsewhere / with a different subject?

• somebody please correct me if I've got this wrong.

I would love him to see the stuff in this thread but I think the idea of me discussing this on a public forum would not go down well. Senua, he can have 4 years of funding in total I believe, and the 2 years he has already done will count. I think the idea that a degree shows an employer that you have the qualities of independence and learning skills is a really good message to pass on. He is still at the stage where he values intelligence and ability above all else, to the extent that he clearly thinks that if you have to work hard to succeed this is less impressive than someone who manages it without trying very hard, when in fact we know it is really the opposite! He is going to select his modules carefully although the choice within the department is not that extensive. I think he can do one from outside - he mentioned a language as he has a language at a level. Thx again.

He will not get a good graduate level job with no work experience- regardless of degree grade. I know of Cambridge firsts who have had to start at the very bottom because they had no employability skills and work experience. This summer he could get some volunteering experience in a charity shop or anything- to show he can do it.
Show him this thread. Or look on graduate recruitment forums. Look at what employers want. Tough love- sorry

If he can identify the modules he wants to do from Sept then he can start doing some reading now through the summer to get a headstart towards better grades?

I think nudging him to do some charity work or eg in a pub this summer will also open his eyes to what work is available to people without degrees (plenty of vacancies in charity shop windows as a start).

Has he thought about a placement? Placement students are noticeably more mature when they come back in the third year and just seem to 'get it'. I can literally walk into a classroom and pick out placement students within 10 mins without looking at their records because they are far more engaged in learning, understand why they are there and what their goal is. If his department or neighbouring department he could nip over to (e.g. business) do have a placement scheme then I'd urge him to take it up, it's quite late, but if he can organise his own then it's possible.

I agree with Doctor. There is no way that he's not encouraged to seek feedback, there must be cross wires somewhere there because the threat of NSS scores alone mean that we're constantly providing a huge array of feedback. I spent 2 hours with 2 students this morning for example providing feedback on their exams.

Also, I know this might sound counterintuitive but he could increase his chances in the job market with a masters - many students are doing this - they get a 2:2, manage to get into a masters in something that suits them better, then pull their grades up and enter the job market with a distinction. But obviously he'd need to be motivated and interested in the subject if he were going to get himself in even greater debt.

Hiya OP - Been busy at work so I do apologize for my late reply.

He needs to speak to his tutor and the initative to do so must come from him. Right now he is coasting because he doesn't enjoy the subject and I think he needs to have a 'come to Jesus' meeting with both parents talking from the same page. His options are to repeat his 2nd year in the business school or get a job. I would suggest he ask his tutor for a year off and get a job. If he is interested in business I would strongly suggest the big 4 post A'Level positions. If he doesn't go back he will still have a qualification.

Bit of a thread drift but my experience was that my tutors never had any inclination to help at all. When I asked for feedback on how to improve I was told to book a 15min timeslot during their office hours. When I went I waited an hour and was told they ran out of time and I went back two further times for the same thing to happen. This was at a redbrick and reading what your posts I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't the same school. The school ranked highly but I was less than impressed with the quality and found it to be a social engineering experiment.

I regret drifting a lot at university. I wasn't unmotivated to ask for help, just painfully young and shy in my case!

I did do the head in the sand thing though and also played too many computer games with my boyfriend (now DH)

It went so far that although I passed everything and it was enough to get ordinary.degree, I was advised not to continue to my honours year. I left after 3 rd year (Scotland) but have always regretted not working as hard as I could have or getting help.

I have ended up with an ok job, but the experience really dented my confidence in what I could achieve for a long time.

I have done work based qualifications since then and achieved a distinction

...which helped a bit with the confidence.

I don't feel I completely wasted my time at university, I just regret not getting the help at the time to make the most of it.

Kit gets to a point where you can't go back and fix it.

Hope he gets his choices sorted out ok and makes the most of his last year. :)

Biker, you don't have to 'throw him out.' Just make it clear that if he does not continue with university he would have his room and board but nothing else i.e no money at all unless he earns it. I don't know anything about gaming but I guess it isn't free - how would he even fund that?

He should contact his tutor now and book a time to see him/her and go over the issues. He should also look at slanting his choices away from the mathematical as much as possible. No matter how traditional and 'top' the university may be, surely the tutors do not refuse to discuss priorities/choices/swtrengths/weaknesses with students.

Too late now but I think sometimes schools/pupils/parents are hung up on getting into one of the 'top universities' rather than looking at the content and flexibility of courses and what would suit the individual. Having said that, there is always the unexpected - university is not like school at all. Your son may have been relatively 'spoon-fed' at school and now that's not happening. (Observations not criticisms as I have no idea about the school or your son, other than what you have written).

He needs to 'use' what is on offer - be a partner in a his own education, not a passive user. Does he have the feeling that if he gets a third, he will be a failure? What is better (rhetorical question) - a 3rd from one of the top 5 or a 2:1/1st from somewhere else.

Ultimately, if your son (worse case senario in your terms) leaves university and sits in his room gaming there will be little you can do). Just offer support and keep talking (about anything though, not just about his course etc).

My son went to a low rated university (with me, at the time, swallowing my disappointment and praising him) but on a course that was ideal for him. He went on to do a Masters and is now in his dream job in a competitive fieldwhich he found at a time when the recession first hit.

Good luck to your DS, whatever he decides.

I would add you and he needs to be more forceful with the university. He is now paying for the service and there have been several successful law suits of unhappy customers (students) who have sued for poor service, failings and lack of communication. He needs to make it clear he wants to change course or revise module.

Demand more.

Hi biker, my dd has just graduated but your post rang bells with me regards lack of motivation. Luckily for my dd that came at a level and first year of uni.

I can clearly remember almost crying with frustration whilst a level revision should have been going on, that she seemed so laid back about doing so little work! No amount of discussing or explaining worked, she was perfectly clever enough to get what might happen, but never really put her all in. She got good enough grades for her insurance uni, but was genuinely shocked I think that she didn't just sail through like she had previously.

Results day was tearful, and I thought she would drop out of uni in the first term, but she didn't. It took her til her second year to realise no one else could do it but her. That's when she decided upon her career choice which really focused her as it was competitive to get on the masters she needed to do this. Lots of volunteer work and hard work and she got a first and has a place on the masters.... Sorry for the essay, but looking back there is nothing I could have said or done to help other than supported her every decision, which I did.

For my dd it was less than desired grades at a level and finally finding a career she wanted to do that pushed her. It is so frustrating, I don't think I have advice for you, other than I totally understand how upsetting it is because you are still mum, and no mum likes to stand back and watch their child waste their potential regardless of how old they are.

It is a tough one. I don't think he is alone. Bright children can breeze through school with support of teachers and parents but find that university is different- suddenly you are adult and on your own and everyone is just as clever, or even cleverer.
I would say he did the wrong course and he would have benefitted from a gap year - but it is all water under the bridge now.
I would sit him down and talk about damage limitation. He doesn't want to abandon now when he has done the bulk of the course - he needs to get something for it. Try and get him to see that seeking help isn't a weakness. If he doesn't want a summer job for the money I would impress upon him that getting his first employment after university will be hard and he needs things on his CV. He can't waste a summer. If he can't or won't get a job then try volunteering- there are lots of opportunities there.
Ultimately it us down to him. Frustratingly there isn't much you can do if he won't help himself. All is not lost- lots of people drop out, make a mess of early life opportunities and then grow up and do something later.

Just come back to this and seen the new comments. Ds has been looking at an alternative, but related, course at the same uni that he is very enthusiastic about and he is finding out if he can repeat 2nd year and switch. Not sure if the uni will allow this but we will see.

At least he's found something that he's enthusiastic about - hope the uni are able to help him.