Question about UCAS applications

[Fairyfellowsmasterstroke]

DD2 is looking at going to univ in Sept 2015.

She is planning on completing her personal statement and creating her univ "shortlist" over the summer with the intent on applying, via UCAS, as soon as it opens in September. Her shortlist will be done by reading prospectus' and online research. At this point she will have only attended 1 open day.

Several of the univs that she has expressed an interest in are holding their open days in October so I suggested that she hang onto her application until she'd been for a few visits.

BUT I then began to ponder on the following:-

If a univ has, for example, 150 places on a course and UCAS doesn't close until mid January 2015 surely, as time goes on, the course may have filled up so people who submit applications in the later months (Nov/Dec or January) may be turned down as the univ may have already made it's offers (ie 150 places, 150 un/conditional offers made by the end of October!).

Does this make sense to people (I don't think I'm explaining it very well!!!).

WWYD - Submit in September hoping that there are more vacant places on the course so there's a higher chance of an offer OR wait until later in the year when you've "done" the open days and are more certain of your shortlist??

All advice welcome.

Unis will look to see who has attended these open days as they are less likely to drop out of the course due to being homesick etc. She also needs to get the email address of the speakers and email them afterwards with some questions. This way her name will be known when her application comes through the system and it will show her as being keen and committed to the course and uni

Former Admissions Tutor here: this is bad advice. We really do not keep a list of who attends Open Days. We do not give preference to those attend Open Days. And sending follow up questions simply to make "your name known" may make it known in ways you really don't want!

Some degree courses interview. And some degree courses will only make an offer after an interview. That's quite different. But Open Days? I'm lucky to remember my son's name after talking all day.

I'm also a bit at what reads like parental over-investment with spreadsheets and so on.

The universities won't see which other universities / courses she has applied for , but she can only (I believe) write one personal statement

I know for Durham (at least for engineering) you can send in a second personal statement.

We have just been through all this for DS for this September. He sent his application in December. He got one reply within a week and then the others dribbled through with the last two in April.

Re the over investment illustrated by spreadsheets.... But you're missing the joy of a jolly good spreadsheet upthechimney. . A thing of beauty in its own right....

For my middle one, we had a great spreadsheet. And also a map! With unis inside a three hour drive marked on it. Then DD1 chose a uni 5 hours away anyway!

But if you really want to get into spreadsheets, you can compare oxford and Cambridge colleges. Then find yourself pooled in any case....

All flippant points, but if you're comparing unis, and you're into visual means of comparison, a spreadsheet helps you order your thoughts in an ideal world your DC would do it themselves but if they don't see it that way then a parent might want to do it themselves- they wouldn't be the only one!

beware from taking advice from admission tutors about universities other than their own - or from anyone who hasn't been through the mill recently as things change. I have been to open days where there had a sheet of paper on which they asked students to write their name. Did it make any difference later - no idea but I wrote on the name of someone who couldn't attend that day just in case.

Some universities certainly have preferences for students who know a great deal about them.

As for Oxford and Cambridge colleges the things that may actually matter are rather hard to find out and probably don't feature on the spreadsheets of most applicants or their parents.

When we have had students sign in to open days it is so we can judge the conversion effect of different events. It does not feed into admissions. Pre- registration for open days lets us plan ahead with some ideas of numbers.

My son was still going to open days last October, put his completed form in mid November started getting replies in December and only got 2 replies after the January date. Although unis say all applications will be treated equally I don't see how popular courses can start sending out offers early and not be concerned they'll run out in Jan, surely they must have to reassess at some time and think "hang on it's early Jan and we have given out 75% of our offers."
I'd favour getting the bulk of his personal statement sorted and get it looked at by the school whilst he's going to open days etc unless he hasn't decided on the type of course. My son applied for near identical courses at different unis so which ones he applied to didn't affect his personal statement.
If he's at all unsure of the type of course I'd hang on though as TSR seemed to have loads of teenagers changing their mind after they'd sent their forms off, often after being pressurised by their parents into choosing a particular degree/ uni.
He didn't have any interviews but Strathclyde had an applicant day in ? January and said they only gave offers to people who attended the applicant day unless they gave a good excuse as to why they couldn't attend.

2rebecca - it's not difficult don't worry. Universities know how many offers they have to make (typically at least 5 times as many places available), and even once the definite offers have been sent out they will have plenty of capacity come the Jan deadline.

I know people always say ' oh it's so difficult so the earlier the application is in the better incase they run out' - but honestly we've been doing this for years and it's fine!

Thanks everyone - all points have been read and passed on to DD.

As for spreadsheets - I bloody LOVE 'EM!!!!

We've listed her possible univs (20 in all), and then looked at entry requirements, distance from home, accommodation prices etc etc. By doing it this way we can begin to whittle them down to the final 5 - it also helps us to decide on open days worth attending as money is tight so we can't travel to many.

Honestly my life revolves around spreadsheets. If its not in excel then it won't happen.

You should see my Christmas spreadsheet - it's a real doozy!!!! Even RAG rated for extra effect!!!

fairyfellows you are a woman after my own heart...... We are just misunderstood by the rest of the world!

Although unis say all applications will be treated equally I don't see how popular courses can start sending out offers early and not be concerned they'll run out in Jan

I just find it extraordinary that you have several working Admissions Tutors on this and many other similar threads with probably a century's worth of experience between them, and you still say this?

We have all been doing it a long time. We do know what we're doing. Academics are highly trained, and generally highly professional people. You don't get a permanent job in a UK university without actually being pretty exceptional, actually.

beware from taking advice from admission tutors about universities other than their own - or from anyone who hasn't been through the mill recently as things change. I have been to open days where there had a sheet of paper on which they asked students to write their name. Did it make any difference later - no idea but I wrote on the name of someone who couldn't attend that day just in case

So -- while impugning the generously offered expertise on this thread, you admit to committing fraud, because you maintain (in the face of several people here telling you it's not so) that you will give your DC an advantage?

FAO Upthechimney - your post at 19.53.41 appears to be directed at me, the OP.

Im more than grateful for all advice that people are giving but you're getting other MNers post mixed up with mine.

Your last sentence appears to be directed, incorrectly at me. Other posters have shared ideas - as the thread starter I'm not questioning anyone's knowledge or expertise.

If I've misinterpreted your post I apologise.

I didn't see any current admissions tutors on this thread and only 1 former admissions tutor. Expecting me to read all the threads in higher ed and count the number of admissions tutors is unreasonable. I tend to presume most people on mumsnet are just mothers.
Getting stroppy because I haven't read all the threads on mumsnet is mental!

I am not an admissions tutor; we don't have such things at my university. I do know exactly how our admissions process works however and I have been involved in all the aspects that academics get involved in from open days, virtual open days, pre and post UCAS visits to selecting. I know that at my institution it makes no difference when you apply (within the deadline) and we don't take any account of whether you visit at any stage. There is, I would assume, wide variation between institutions and even between departments in the same institution, but treating all timely applicants equally is a requirement of the UCAS system and no doing so would lead to trouble.

Plenty of students with good profiles get offers from good/ top unis well ahead of the January deadline, so although some universities operate on the basis of a gathered field, many don't. It's therefore a distinct advantage to get an application in as early as possible, once a student is clear in their own mind where they want to apply.

Plenty of students with good profiles get offers from good/ top unis well ahead of the January deadline, so although some universities operate on the basis of a gathered field, many don't. It's therefore a distinct advantage to get an application in as early as possible, once a student is clear in their own mind where they want to apply.

The first sentence is correct, however there is no advantage in applying early. At least not in terms of the likelihood of getting an offer (or the level of that offer)

As has been explained above (repeatedly...) universities are required to give equal consideration to all applications before the deadline.

Fairy it was meant for me, UTC taking umbrage because I pointed out that they didn't have knowledge of other universities and that even their own university could have changed.

However I wouldn't worry about universities running out of places. Mostly they make a few before Christmas but a lot more offers later. Then they get some applicants rejecting the offers and they make some more. It's a pretty difficult juggling act to make the right number of offers and it would be more difficult for them to do it all at once.

A lot of people on mumsnet are not just mothers but not everyone wants to say what they are, or what expertise they have.

The student room website is a good resource and can be more up-to-date than mumsnet.

And for UTC - if you are right about it not mattering then it makes no odds what I did. If the university were actually favouring those who attended the open day, and hence discriminating against the poor, then it gave a poorer child the same chance as my own. Pretty obvious really that I wouldn't be writing my own child's name when they had already done so, I signed the name of one of their friends who couldn't afford to make the trip.

I don't see how they can keep track of who attended open days; there are lots of open days & the uni is usually massive & people come thru at various times or have to cancel at last minute and swap visiting days. Quite a lot of the visitors won't even apply or will chop and change their ideas about which course many times or will want a gap yr, etc. There's enough tick box admin going on at universities for legit reasons, no need to add anything so tenuous.

For same reason I'd be surprised if they look at the applications any sooner than they have to; they'll be snowed under at last minute & the best candidates are best identified from the complete group with full interview details to hand, not from perusing a small pool of early front runners.

lljkk - as an anecdote to show that unis do look at their applications when they receive them - last year my DD sent in her application on 1st October - and had an offer from Southampton on 4th. In fact, she had all her offers in by end of November ( except one which interviewed in December) - so all of the others were looking at them when they came in, not waiting to group them.

They know, on average, how many applicants they get, with what grades, so they would actively want to get through the paperwork in stages....

Oh sure, there's some early browsing & tentative filtering, I may have misused the word "look". But you can't get a complete picture until they're all in. It would be a bad way to get the best applicants for a professional job, too, to prioritise early applicants over last-day ones.

we don't have such things at my university. I do know exactly how our admissions process works however and I have been involved in all the aspects that academics get involved in from open days, virtual open days, pre and post UCAS visits to selecting. I know that at my institution it makes no difference when you apply (within the deadline) and we don't take any account of whether you visit at any stage. There is, I would assume, wide variation between institutions and even between departments in the same institution, but treating all timely applicants equally is a requirement of the UCAS system and no doing so would lead to trouble

This, from chemenger.

Most academics in most departments are involved in Admissions in some way be it from advising/speaking at Open Day, reviewing UCAS forms (yes we do read hem), or interviewing applicants. We have to be involved: thse are the people we'll be teaching for 3-4 years. And this is how we contribute to bringing in income to the university getting the right students in terms of quality, fit, and ability, and in the right numbers, is strategically, vitally important for every university department and academic (bar All Souls, Ox).

I just find it frustrating that the same old half-truths and myths are peddled about, and misinformation/bad advice lapped up, when you have the wonderful resource of working academics and university administrators here! Why be rude to us and diss our knowledge & advice?

And, UTC, having been though this with 3 DC now, I can say that I've been very grateful for the insights from the likes of yourself and others over the years.....

Many university courses now recruit rather than select i.e. they offer to all or almost all students who have the right predicted grades. There are no number caps at ABB+ (and number caps are set to disappear entirely) so a course that offers AAA can take as many students as it likes. The only risk of making many offers is that you could get more students than you can handle... but in practice this won't happen unless you are the very very top institutions and as mentioned above admissions tutors are good at gauging how many students they are likely to get from a given number of offers. A course which makes offers to all (almost all) qualified candidates can offer early in the Autumn without "running out" of offers in January.

I think many applicants and their parents are unaware that many courses recruit rather than select. Courses that recruit can include many at "top" universities in "less popular" subjects - e.g. physics and maths. The situation is very different for a student applying for maths courses than a student applying for over-subscribed subjects such as english or law. You can count on your fingers the number of UK universities selecting for maths, rather than recruiting students (from the UK and abroad) who have sufficient grades.

My middle son put his application in about an hour before the closing date !! Got unconditional offers to all his 5 choices. So I think just let them put it in when they feel comfortable :) his older sister put her in early as it was an art subject and they are very picky and only decide after interviews and most do like students to have done a diploma in art at uni . She's just graduated with a first with honours !!!

UptheChimney always gives very sound advice for those applying to top unis. But then I think s/he teaches at a top uni. The difficulty with some other advice given on these threads is that those working at more middling unis generalise about admissions, and insist that their way of doing things is universal (which it isn't), so obviously that's misleading, confusing and unhelpful. Unis such as Keele or Loughborough don't sift applications or make offers in the same way as unis such as UCL or Durham. Oxford and Cambridge are different again. I've never quite understood why those tutors on MN who teach at middling or less competitive unis insist that they know all about admissions at more competitive places. It seems silly and unworldly to me.