University Entry requirements

[Fairyliz]

My daughter has just finished her AS levels and is starting to arrange uni visits with a view to starting a degree in Autumn 15. We have looked on the UCAS site and got a list of degrees she is interested in, the problem is most of them seem to suggest the entry requirements are AAB.
Even the ex polys seem to say you need BBB, the problems is I think my daughter is probably a CCC girl!
So what do we do? do uni's ever lower their requirements or is she out of luck?

The OU has no a University life though. I think it would be really sad for an 18 year old to study like this. Where are the parties, the coffee shops, the music, the celebrations, sharing a flat, the laughter, deadlines looming and the 24 hour library opening and not to mention the student experience away from home? Yes, you get a degree but there are other student elements that are clearly missing.

30/40 grand ish for tuition, plus all the other thousands for housing/food etc over 3/4 years.... is quite a high price for the sake of that experience.

I haven't crossed English unis off the list of options yets (DS is only 13), but realistically that sort of debt has to offer more than "the uni experience" to make it worth it.

Going to study at a uni in the Netherlands (they are offering increasing numbers of courses taught in English) makes more sense if we have enough money upfront to fund it. Looking recently tuition is generally around the 2 grand a year mark.

If we can't fund that then OU while living at home may be the only realistic option. His friends will all be still at home as well (just how it works here in the country where we live, it's more unusual for students to study far from their nearest city).

But then if he doesn't "bloom" academically ... I have discovered your higher apprenticeships. They seem to ask for 2 A levels, but their case study examples all have three. No mention of grades or subjects. There are lots in the areas he is interested (at the moment, at 13 there is plenty of time for that to change). They work for three years while studying part time (OU seems to be a popular choice for the study element of the apprenticeship) so they get hands on experience and work towards a higher qualification.

I don't believe it is as straight forward a choice as it used to be. The debt the kids get saddled with is enourmous. The degree gained has to offer significant employment/earning potential in its own right, becuase with the best will in the world the "uni experience" costs many tens of thousands of pretty pennies.

God knows how much it will cost in four years time when DS is at crunch time. Or if there will be any funding via student loans at all by then.

For those saying that it's not worth going to Univ with CCC, do you realise how hard it is to find a job that you actually might want to do, without a degree nowadays?

It's not about it not "being worth" going to university. It's about coping, and being up to the actual work. Those A Level grades do still mean something about a snapshot of a particular set of abilities.

Only the top x% got an A and the next y% got a B, regardless of what marks the candidates actually got. Nowadays if you get above a certain mark you get an A, and if that meant (unilikely) the entire cohort got an A, that would be fine

It's a move from a standard distribution model of marking, to a criteria referenced model of marking. Which is a good thing in that it allows examiners to reward work which meets stated criteria. Although I gather from friends who do A Level marking that those criteria are not particularly taxing ...

Mammuzza the OU isn't your only option and you don't have to go abroad. The University of London do several degrees by distance learning and the total cost of the 3yr degree works out as less than one year's worth of tuition fees if you turned up in person. Most of the courses are run by LSE, SOAS, Royal Holloway or Goldsmiths but there are other places too see here

Shouldn't OP & her DD go to careers advice service at their college to figure this out? I would have thought they would have access to right info.

Good luck, I'm sure there is a right Uni course for her out there.

eatyourveg

I am abroad already , DS is "home", but he is half English and attends a British independent school while living here. My big plan (when he was small) was to make uni doubly worth it by using it not just as higher ed, but a sort of "bubble wrapped" cultural immersion in the other half of his heritage. Then the fees changed to mega expensive. But I wasn't that worried. Right until the flow of articles huffing about EU students welching on their loans. With extra added dark mutterings.

Wildly off topic in terms of the OP (sorry OP!) but I can't bank on student loans being around for us in 4 years, even if he blooms academically and comes out with AAA. I don't think even the British residents with KS3 kids can bank on the same kind of loan options to pay for uni in the future. It has all changed so much in a shortish time. Who knows what the next set of changes will bring. However I would not bet on it getting cheaper, or more accessable.

I have looked into the distance under grad offerings. It's quite limited, the courses offered would require a compromise in terms of interest (as things stand at the moment, he might well change his mind about his areas of interest) that is not required for study with the OU, where he is relaticely spoilt for choice. Plus, OU have a great rep compared to quite a few of the unis offering distance courses. And the OU have been doing it a long time, as specialists in distance learning, which I think is likely to impact course/teaching/materials quality.

On the upside, I can only see distance offerings increasing, so the landscape of choice might look very different by the time he is post A level.

I think all I can do is keep my ear to the ground, look for all the options possible as they become available, take note of any ripples of yet more change, keep an open mind... and hope it all comes together when the time comes.

As things progress the Netherlands may not be the only N. European country to spot the potential to expand into the international student market by offering ever greater numbers of courses taught in English at a very competative cost. It might not be the "explore your English heritage my child" experience I originally had in mind, but on the other hand a very cosmoplitan, euro/global mix has its own advantages. And it would be one way to "univeristy experience style bubble wrap" his entrance into living independently.

Ignoring the discussion of whether DD should or shouldn't go on to study at higher education - that is completely down to her and uni is not just for AAB - but universities do offer down. Especially in clearing. An AAB uni might not got down to CCC but one who had entry requirements of BBB might. (Think someone said similar above)

HE is changing - lift of student number controls means there will be more spaces available and possibly more flexibility. Just keep expectations realistic and keep the thought that its as much about the experience as the education. Enjoy the process too - it am be exciting looking at what they all have to offer!

The thing is, it can be difficult to get a job with no degree but it is even more difficult to get a job with a not very good degree. So at CCC you need to be looking at a Uni that has very good contacts with employers and she needs to be doing a degree with high employability. Scraping in to do English somewhere ot very good is a high risk.

I would evaluate your local FE college as a serious alternative. She could do a vocational course there and have a great deal of fun, with much better prospects for her 20s when she comes out.

attends a British independent school while living here

I don't get this? You're prepared to pay school fees I assume a "British independent school" outside of Britain is not free but not university fees? A fee of £9,000 pa is a helluva lot cheaper than independent school fees for 6 years. And it's an excellent investment in a child's future.

The "social experience" of university is actually extremely valuable, which an economist could, I'm sure, actually quantify in terms of networks, friendships, contacts for the rest of a person's life.

Currently European universities do offer good value, providing of course students can afford to be there without student loans.

This situation is of course one of the benefits of EU membership, which is at risk from UKIP etc.

It will also be interesting to watch what happens if Scotland votes for independence. Currently EU students are treated the same as Scottish students, whereas English students pay fees. It is widely believed this would be untenable (assuming of course EU membership was retained anyway).

I don't get this? You're prepared to pay school fees I assume a "British independent school" outside of Britain is not free but not university fees? A fee of £9,000 pa is a helluva lot cheaper than independent school fees for 6 years. And it's an excellent investment in a child's future.

He doesn't go to a chi chi International school costing an arm and a leg (I think ten grand a year is the norm for them, but not sure, they are too far away from where live to be a viable option even if much much cheaper than that) , plus uniform, plus transport costs, plus extras. My son goes to an online independent British secondary school. 2,600 ish pa, some years as much as a couple of hundred on top for books if bought new, but nothing horrendous.

Realistically if we hadn't decided to shell out for this school there would be no talk of university. All our talk would have been focused on trying to convince him not to leave school the minute it was legally possible, at 15. He was failing and miserable and home ed with me teaching him was not going to lead to success in exams or a truely dramatic turn around in his mindset vis a vis academic learning. It's not like the total outlay of .. 15 grand ? over six years by the time he finishes A levels could have been better spent funding one year of uni. Becuase there wasn't going to be any chance of qualifications to offer a uni. if we hadn't made the change.

I'm sure some people, on some courses, at some universities get "added value" in terms of connections forged that pay off in terms of enchanced careers. But that is not universal. PPE at Cambridge might be worth morgaging your house for to get "the university experience" if student loans get whipped off the table for EU students. Game Design at Solent...perhaps not so much. Not when there is a decent uni course in the same subject, with what looks like far better industry links, at a fraction of the cost in The Netherlands. Or a higher apprenticeships in England that allows for hands on practical progamming experience in a real world context right from the start, with higher study as part of the package, and a salary that can cover living expences.

He was failing and miserable and home ed with me teaching him was not going to lead to success in exams or a truely dramatic turn around in his mindset vis a vis academic learning

This doesn't sound like a child ready for or wanting to go to university, or indeed, at the moment, suited to university. It's good that he and you are looking at other options for further post-secondary education.

In my day if you went for an obscure enough degree the offer could be very low indeed. I did a very obscure subject at an RG uni (which is what I wanted to do, I didn't know about the offer when I applied) and I had an EE offer. Which was a good thing, as it turned out, as I bombed in my A levels. But I nearly dropped out in my first year as the course (which wasn't even that onerous, 5 hours a week in the first year) was much much harder than my A levels. And this is 1989/90!

This doesn't sound like a child ready for or wanting to go to university, or indeed, at the moment, suited to university. It's good that he and you are looking at other options for further post-secondary education.

Indeed. And had he remained miserable and failing after changing schools I'd be looking at very different range of options.

Things are very different now. Which is more or less why I am willing to keep on shelling out just over two and half grand a year.

The Government here is now worried that students will only pay off a fraction if their debt. If they get a job, but the salary is not that great, and research shows graduate salaries to be static, they may find the loans are exceptionally good value for money. The Government will not get much back from quite significant numbers.

Being a student is about learning how to manage one's life without Mum and Dad choreographing every move. It is about becoming an adult and making decisions, standing on your own two feet and standing, or falling, by your own decisions. Students should leave home to do this if at all possible. If they are patently under qualified or unable to flourish away from home, then university should be delayed or other options sought. For the vast majority who go to good universities, they would never want to do anything else. They would never consider the OU as a viable alternative unless they were working full time. University is about preparing for life, not just getting a qualification.

Being a student is about learning how to manage one's life without Mum and Dad

Absolutely not. Being a student is about studying for a degree.

Universities are not there to be a finishing school for mollycoddled children, and if you can't stand on your own two feet, you should not be there.

I haven't read the other responses so sorry if I'm repeating anything, but have you looked into foundation years as an option if your daughter really wants to go to university but doesn't have the grades for undergraduate entry? Many (not all) universities have these as a sort of preparation year to help students get ready for the first year. Yes, it's extra money. But in most cases if they pass it means they progress normally onto the course.

I think a poster above mentioned the Netherlands as an option - Sweden and the Netherlands have lots of courses that are a lot cheaper and in English. I'm not sure about Sweden but a lot of the Dutch universities are ranked really high in the world rankings. However, most of the Dutch universities expect people to be very independent - there are no (or hardly any) university halls (people sort their own accommodation and it's expensive), and not the same level of support for students you get in the UK (especially at a former polytechnic). In my experience UK polytechnics do a LOT more in terms of work placements/opportunities, which is extremely valuable!

OP if you look at the Guardian University league tables, one of the columns is 'Average entry tariff' ie. average number of UCAS points students currently studying on the course have. Looking at a couple of random subjects, there are courses there with average tariffs in the low 200s- even lower than 240 - obviously, more choice with 280ish. Does she have/ could she do a fourth AS? CCC at A2 plus c at AS would give 280 points.
It seems to me the system is set up to allow/ encourage/ fund those with middling results to continue to University as well as those with top results. Perhaps the powers that be want an educated workforce!

However, most of the Dutch universities expect people to be very independent

That goes for most European universities. Colleagues of mine who were educated in France, Italy or Germany talk of lecture groups in the hundreds, "seminars" of over 50 students, and of course the small group tutorial, or individual personal supervision or tutorial is non-existent.

While the basic tuition fee is much lower in most other EU countries, you get what you pay for. And non-nationals have very limited (if at all) access to loans.

Some Dutch university subjects are ranked highly but many are not. Tables ranking international universities focus on research which does not necessarily correlate with teaching. Most of those courses in Holland taught in English (University Colleges) are fairly new programs and are not ranked highly. Caveat emptor.

(Until recently I was an academic in Holland. I wouldn't send my child to the vast majority of Dutch undergraduate programs and that's one reason we left Holland.)

uiler123

I wouldn't send my child to the vast majority of Dutch undergraduate programs

Now that caught my eye. The disadvantage of trying to work out options from afar is that you just don't have access to the "up close and personal view". So can I ask why ?

I know why I don't want him to persue higher ed in the country where I live, and I'd be interested to see if there was any overlap with your disinclination to send your child to uni in Holland.

The thread seems to have strayed a bit off topic - but when I had a problem with my ds we used the Whatuni website - type in course and expected grades and it gives you a list of choices. As I think another poster said had she got an extra AS that she is dropping ? The UCAS points for that could count to the overall number required (depends on the uni). I don't think you have said what she wants to study but see if the points from something like an EPQ would be counted - that might be something she could do to get her UCAS points up.

There will be choices out there but you may have to search. My son crashed and burned at AS level and went from straight A predictions to BBC - he has offers from 5/5 of his choices this year. As he has worked harder this year I hope he will have no trouble meeting his offers but by the time his extra AS was factored in he could even drop a grade and get in to his first choice.

Do not despair - I used to read mumsnet and wonder where all these Oxbridge paragons of virtue were.......

What a bizarre response Creamteas! You disagree with my comment that students should be able to manage life without Mum and Dad and then say University is not for mollycoddled children and that they should be able to stand on their own two feet. Is this not what I was saying? Successful students study but grow up and learn other skills at the same time to make them employable. Employers look for more than a degree. This was my argument about why the OU or distance learning might put an 18 year old at a disadvantage in the job market. They will have been mollycoddled at home and not had any fun either and their employability skills might be less well developed. One would hope any University would expect students to do more than just study? If not, why have sports halls, music groups, drama societies etc? These other skills should be developed at all educational institutions whether a university or not.

I think it would require great maturity and motivation to handle OU at 18. (Indeed at any age.) I can't see any reason why employers would not be impressed by an 18 year with relatively weak A levels who then goes on to achieve a good degree with the OU, especially combined with other activities (volunteering, part time job, member of a local sports team).

I assume Creamteas sees a reasonable number of student who turn up to University without sufficient self-motivation or organisational skills and who end up wasting their own time and money. We know several kids who, at 16 and in an area with fantastic public transport, are still driven to school each day. Some whose parents still seem to sit over them and supervise homework, and tightly organise their after-school activities and social life. It might be interesting to see how they react once let off parental reins.

Sorry OP - partial hijack, though wanted to challenge the idea that University is a crucial stage in gaining maturity. Not for everyone. Indeed thinking of people I know, those that did not go to University don't seem any less mature or interesting than those that did.

The OP hasn't actually returned ...