Why do you need a degree to study a PhD?

[MajorLook]

So. Education in this country works like this: Broad spectrum undergraduate degree, more specific Masters degree, then if you have an original idea, you can study towards a PhD.

Question. Why do you need a bachelors (and/or) masters degree to do a PhD? Surely there are people out there who can have original thoughts, can research under supervision, and can write a PhD all without previous degrees?

Is it just the way it is? Is it because you have to 'prove your worth' to education? Is it that you have to learn specific skills along the way?

I would love to work towards a PhD and have a few ideas that would work very well, in a serious academic discipline, but I don't have a degree.

trainin sorry I misread what you said, I get it now!

My point stands though, overall the publishers do make money but the authors get nothing. So if you look at it from the other perspective, that of not just the author who works for nothing but the editor or reviewer who works for nothing what is in it for them? That monographs get published even at a loss? Fine, let's give that up and make it all online, however let the publishers give up the other free labour of academics though, the textbooks, the edited collections and the journals.

I have no doubt that the people who work for publishers are lovely, ethusiastic and committed...so are the academic authors, editors and reviewers, but the system is not tenable. I get at least one request to review a journal paper a month, why exactly should I say yes? The author gets no money, the editor gets no money, all they get is the prestige of publication which they need for REF (well the author, the editor gets nada), but that could be preserved by transferring the entire good will system online for free (or for a minor cost that could be covered by the sales of textbooks and edited collections or the savings Unis would make by not having to subscribe to the works of their own staff!).

journal editors do get money. not usually a lot (depends on the prestige of the journal, and field i am sure), but they do get an honorarium, though whether that adequately covers their time is definitely debatable. some journals pay their reviewers. (in some areas of the world authors get money from their institution if they publish in a high-impact journal)

i think that there is a certain amount of reciprocity - the careers of authors, reviewers and editors are to a certain extent aided by their involvement in scholarly publishing in terms of CV, REF etc (being a journal editor can sometimes help with securing funding, positions, prestige). again, it will depend on disciplines i'm sure. in some areas of research people are keen to be reviewers because they can get access to the results very early on

that said, the work of authors, reviewers and editors shouldn't be taken for granted - and the burden is increasing too - and i think some publishers do do that

a totally online system (which i agree i would be completely in favour of - print is dwindling to nothign really) is not cost-free if it's going to be usable though. and there are arguments about whether the shift of budget from library to publication would actually be cost-neutral (i don't know enough about this, but the scholarly kitchen blog has discussed this i think). the worry is of course that those areas of research that don't receive so much funding might be restricted in terms of where they could publish as they couldn't cover those costs

MajorLook your last paragraph sounds quite different to a PhD. It sounds almost like you need to find the already written PhD and transform it into something more accessible. Do contact Rachel Reed who I linked to up above also have a look into the Homebirth Australia conference program from 2014. I didn't attend but I understand many of the keynote speakers have done research into experience and current practice. It may also be worth contacting Milli Hill - Founder of the Positive birth movement - she is featured in this months MIDRIS and really has a global reach. Depending on what area of birth you are thinking about I can also recommend other organizations who might be of interest/help.

This thread has been useful for me. It' has confirmed that while I do "love" studying my undergrad is likely to be enough for me and further study will likely be in vocational level.

willeywaggledancer as an undergrad a paid for online system would be great. It would mean access to more text books then I can afford at the moment, not having to try to get second hand copies but also I'd hope increase some of the amazing interactive tools available and also cutting down on some the paper use. I've brought required text books that only used two chapters which I would have been more then happy to print.

Willie in my discipline there isn't a single journal that pays editors, authors or reviewers. In fact we were once asked by the publisher as a department to subsidise the cost of a secretary for one of our staff who was volunteering as an editor for the top journal in the sub-field on the grounds that it was too much work for one person!

Yes of course the whole system works on reciprocity and good will. It used to make sense when the cost of publishing paper journals was substantial for academics to offer their services to publishers for free - just not anymore! And the cost of putting the journals online could easily be covered by what Universities now pay to access the journals. Here is a break down of what UK Unis pay to Elsevier alone, in some cases it is up to 1million per Uni!
plus.google.com/117663015413546257905/posts/AKiJsUwQfzy#117663015413546257905/posts/AKiJsUwQfzy

There was a Dutch Uni recently that simply refused the latest price hike (I can't remember if it was with Elsevier or Springer) - they calculated that they would save tonnes of money simply paying for pay per view articles as and when staff and students needed them rather than the whole package.

Hazchem libraries are slowly moving to buying books on e-book format, but publishers tend to charge different prices for multiple access to an e-book than when an individual buys one 'copy'. A few academic books are beginning to appear on Torrent and I suspect it will all go the way of the music industry, once everything is stolen online publishers will be forced to radically adjust their prices.

I meant more for students to purchase ourselves. As so much of my reading is now printed by me anyway I'd be happy to skip the $100 for a textbook and have an on-line copy myself.
That is crazy that editors are not paid!

I have been paid by publishers to review book proposals, it was quite fun to be honest and a bit of extra cash!

Hazchem most textbooks should be available as e-books nowadays, although not necessarily for a cheaper price than the hardback edition. Try Amazon or the publisher's site directly before you buy at the bookstore and you may find the e-version.

'I think the unique perspective I could offer is the manner in which research data is presented - I have ideas about ways to make people think, and believe that my USP is almost my ability to communicate effectively. If I can obtain the data I would like to use, I believe that I could present it in a way that could make a difference.'

Have you thought about setting up a charity to campaign on and raise funds for your issue? Charities that are interested in research often offer grants to academics to research particular topics on their behalf and perhaps you could do this too on a small scale if you could raise sufficient funds. It sounds like your skillset might be better suited to that approach than to actually having to train to do the research yourself.

NotDavidTennant and HazChem - thanks both great ideas. Bizarrely, I saw a couple of days ago that the Positive Birth Movement is launching/has just launched a new campaign and I was thinking of getting in touch.

If we could collaborate, there will be a greater reach for research surveys, and it makes sense to combine the (very similar) messages rather than water them down. Plus we can then work on a change agenda.

Really appreciate all the ideas (and the academic discussion) here! I've gone from feeling a bit dispirited to feeling totally inspired

Booboostoo thanks for the tip I will.

The All that Matters is an amazing campaign! I think it will go far. PBM has been running for only 2 years now and has groups in over 100 countries. I'm a bit biased as I facilitate a group :)
If birth trauma is your field then also consider talking to birthtalk.org they are based in Brisbane and are just about to publish their first book.

If you work within the NHS then there are alot of opportunities for research through local teaching hospitals and if it's midwifery the school of nursing. Many nurses and GPs are involved in research projects co-ordinated by the local university/ medical school/ dept of general practice. Most clinical medical research isn't connected to pHDs in my experience.

Major I really think your first port of call should be to properly check if the data you want actually pr

Sorry my 2 year old just decided that was ready to post

You need to look at the PRJ properly to find out if the data you want already exists. If you find something similar but not quite what you are after you could contact the author and propose the research and that perhaps you could then promote the findings or something.

What I mean is you appear certain the data doesn't exist without looking properly

Having just finished my undergraduate degree, I feel you're being a little bit dismissive of what you learn during a degree. My degree had a lot of emphasis on learning how to conduct research- as well as gaining knowledge and a secure grounding in the field. I feel like I've learnt a lot about how to conduct research over the last three years. Having the idea is arguably one of the least important bits. I could think of lots of origional ideas within the field I'd really like to do research in- I wouldn't be capable of carrying all of them out to the required standard to get published, though.

Also, I was allowed to pick the subject for my undergraduate dissertation, and carry it out. I believe the same is true for most MSc/MRes dissertations. You don't have to be working at PhD level in order to start conducting your own research.

Funding a PhD is a big investment for a university, and they do need to have faith that you have the dedication to complete, the ability to conduct a decent study (including study design and statistics) as well as the ability to link it into current research. You also need to be able to write it up in an appropriate way for peer reviewed journals to accept it- for example reporting your statistics in a certain way is really important, but writing the introduction, discussion and methods all require different approaches.

Also, don't forget that most science based research studies only get published if they get a significant result. It may be that people have done research on your idea before, but not found any significant results, and therefore the paper hasn't been published. So you could do a whole PhD and have nothing to show for it.

I hope you find a way to carry out or get involved in the research you want to do, but I would be careful of assuming that you would be able to carry out research to a PhD level without prior experience.