Why do you need a degree to study a PhD?

[MajorLook]

So. Education in this country works like this: Broad spectrum undergraduate degree, more specific Masters degree, then if you have an original idea, you can study towards a PhD.

Question. Why do you need a bachelors (and/or) masters degree to do a PhD? Surely there are people out there who can have original thoughts, can research under supervision, and can write a PhD all without previous degrees?

Is it just the way it is? Is it because you have to 'prove your worth' to education? Is it that you have to learn specific skills along the way?

I would love to work towards a PhD and have a few ideas that would work very well, in a serious academic discipline, but I don't have a degree.

Jane Goodall didn't have a degree when she did her PhD.

It's because you have to learn specific skills along the way.

Plus an element of proving your ability, capacity and commitment.

In many fields (well, mine, civil engineering, at least) you often need an MSc too.

You need a thorough understanding of your subject to research hypothesis and prove new concepts. Analytical skills. Technical knowledge. Theoretical understanding. Practical application. All of which are formalised by a Batchelor's degree.

What discipline do you think your proposed research belongs to?

You don't need a masters degree to do a science PhD. You would need an undergraduate degree to give you the basic skills and background knowledge - however if you were a more mature student an open-minded supervisor might take you on if you had relevant experience without a degree.

The obvious question is, how will you demonstrate to a potential supervisor, that your idea is relevant in its field and that you have the understanding, capacity and skills necessary to do the research?

You may have everything that's needed to do that. In which case give it a go!

If that's true, you have the skills and much of the knowledge you would have obtained doing a degree. It's just that you have to gain an audience and prove this yourself. A degree is a handy shorthand.

It's only recently that masters before PhD has become the norm. Often this is in research skills and techniques and reflects a cautiousness on the part of universities, who are now more reliant on reliable students who will complete in time and publish papers.

Do you have all the necessary research and statistical skills? You need them.

My father did a PhD in his 40s in biomedical science with no previous degrees. He did however have years of professional experience and did his through the OU.

You do need to situate your phd in academic debates and methods and within your discipline too. It's not only having an 'original idea'. The undergraduate degree will give you the knowledge of the substance of those debates and methods required to convince people that your idea is workable and worth doing.

Some universities will take you will relevant prior experience, but you will need to demonstrate the kind if familiarity with the discipline that someone with a (recent) degree would.

"Why do you need a bachelors (and/or) masters degree to do a PhD? "

Presumably because you would need to have studied the basic stuff at university level to then go on to write a thesis on a specific point.

I doubt if one could do a PhD without a relevant university degree these days, simply because there is so much to learn before you get to the PhD-level details.

I'm looking at a psychology idea, sited within midwifery. I would definitely need to work on research methods and statistics (I'm thinking of a qualitative and quantitative approach to assess specific experiences).

There's no way I could do a degree - I started one with the OU but it very soon became cost-prohibitive, and that was before the ridiculous fees hike came in.

I might see if I could do a few rearch/stats only modules maybe? I know of a professor who would almost certainly consider the subject matter for supervisory purposes, so I just need to have the skills and some research methodology to back it up...

This is really encouraging, thanks :)

A number of reasons:

Firstly you need background knowledge in your subject area. A PhD thesis is on a narrow topic but for competence in your subject area you need a broader perspective and a longer time to study than the 3-4 years allocated to the thesis.

Secondly you need research skills. If you are not in the habit of writing, going from nothing to 70-100,000 words is a big ask. It's not just the actual writing bit but also developing skills in reading, note taking, using the work of others in your own work, etc. You also need to learn how to follow the literature from one idea to the other, understand what others have to contribute, etc.

Thirdly time management skills are really important to a PhD and are developed gradually. During a BA you will have frequent deadlines for short essays which will get you in the habit of working little and often. You may do a dissertation but it will be brief (10-15,000 words). Most MAs then develop this balance between taught courses and independent research to 50;50. By the PhD it is all independent research which is a tough thing to manage if you are not in the habit of working this way.

Finally narrowing down your thesis topic is a big challenge. It is possible to have ideas from your work experience but this will only apply to a very limited number of people.

How would you propose funding it? If you think Bachelors degrees are expensive PhDs come with eye-watering fees!

titchy - Postgrad degrees are currently much cheaper than UG! 9k per year (albeit mostly in loans) at UG, vs 3.5K per year at postgrad. I'm sure the postgrad fees will catch up of course...

OP - if you have an equivalent qualification to a degree in midwifery, that may help. Did you write any essays/dissertation or equivalent? You would need to do a lot of background literature reviewing beforehand to get taken on though, and demonstrate you could produce written work in the shape of a research proposal at least.

PhD fees will cost you money as well...

The funding is an issue - I've not given much thought about the practicalities of this yet, although there are several charities who would potentially benefit from the research who may be willing/able to assist with some of the funding.

I don't think I'd be able to start straightaway, but if there was a way of reducing the pre-PhD time from 9 years (6 years part time BA/Sc plus 3 years PT masters) to a year or two, then I might be able to get myself better prepared.

This is very much a castle in the sky, but I think the research I want to carry out is important and needs doing, and could go towards having an impact on the way things are done in the future. The longer I have to wait, the higher the chances of me letting life get in the way, and also, if things can be improved, it seems wrong to have to wait 12 years plus time for changes to be implemented when change could and should be happening right now.

I'm assuming you're a midwife? It only takes two years part time to top up your diploma to degree, won't your employer fund it? I know a lot won't now but ours have started paying for OU recently which is better than nothing. I don't think they offer midwifery but if you're originally dual trained they might let you top up to BSc nursing?
Good luck!

OU, I mean.

If I've jumped to conclusions and you're not a MW yourself, you could write to your local maternity unit and community mw office to ask if any of them would be interested in developing your idea. Every unit has people who can't get enough of research!

I currently supervise a very able PhD student with only an MSc (only!). She was taken on to the MSc mainly out of curiosity by the coordinator, and really impressed at interview and with grades.

However, she does lack that basic training on research methods and stats, and this has been a problem that she has needed to work hard to address. Her writing has improved, but it's still not academic standard (although, she may make a very good popular science writer). So you have a good grasp of the literature around your topic? Is your research question based in theory?

I would be very reluctant to take on a PhD student who did not have undergrad or masters. They're an unproven entity, and at a time when my time is very tight, I don't have the space to walk someone through things that I'd expect any other PhD student to know. You will need to self-fund too, and I'd want to know what your planned career progression might be. Will you want to publish? Again, if not, I wouldn't want you as a supervisee. If you do, and you're impressive, then you might find someone to take a chance on you. Doing some research methods training first would be an advantage though.

You don't need a phd to do the research - unless you mean you don't have the training/skills to do the research yet? You could probably get onto an MSc in health psych with a diploma + experience. You then start the project as your dissertation, and either then get phd funding, or just ally yourself with an academic and do it in collaboration with them.

As others have said, it isn't just a matter of gate-keeping, or 'proving your worth'. Very few students who do complete an undergraduate degree have the relevant skills and understanding to go onto a PhD, so it's hard to envisage how someone who hasn't completed undergraduate study would have amassed the critical thinking, research, writing and technical skills to carry out a substantial independent research project.

Without formal qualifications, you would also struggle to get funding (though if you have charities in mind you should contact them to ask their conditions). That said, in some areas/disciplines universities will accept practitioner expertise as equivalent to some aspects of previous higher education (the broad background knowledge). It doesn't happen in my area, but I would hazard a guess that we would be talking decades rather than years of experience - I might be wrong though.

You would still need to find some way of demonstrating that you had the specific skills needed for your proposed project, and the writing/critical thinking skills to follow it through at PhD level. Especially if what you are proposing is interdisciplinary (psychology/midwifery) you will need to show an awareness of the academic fields of both areas and demonstrate that you are already familiar with relevant literature on cognate topics.

Practically speaking, you could contact the professor who might be interested in supervising the project you have in mind and see if you can speak to him/her about potential entry routes. It may be that - if you have a track record of relevant practitioner experience - you could join a different research project as an assistant or something to build up a more formalised CV before applying for a PhD. Do bear in mind though - and I say this kindly! - that someone senior in the field may not be open to an approach from out of the blue from someone without formal qualifications who is proposing something they think will revolutionise the area. Be prepared to convince him/her that you and your project are serious and viable.

Other thoughts: if you already have a few modules from the OU, can you transfer this credit and add specific modules to undergraduate degree standard? that might cut the timescale a bit. And if you are approaching charities - or have the wherewithal within your own place of work (I'm guessing that this PhD idea has arisen out of your frontline experience in one of the relevant areas) - could you see if anyone would fund a pilot study in what you are proposing/to study the potential changes you want to investigate? That would still need substantial academic/research justification, but something small-scale might be a stepping stone to developing a broader project.

This is really helpful - for some reason I thought the only route into research was via a PhD, and I think the nuts and bolts of my thinking are that I would love to be able to research some of my ideas properly. I'd love to publish and evoke change/or at least create a new line of discourse.

I work in the media and have professional media qualifications. This has come about as I'm researching a talk I'm giving to a conference later in the year centred on a particular experience I had. Rather than make it all me me me, I'm broadening it out and I've not found the kind of research that I would like to use.

I am in the process of creating a survey to gather some information from new mothers that I had initially thought I would ask friends/family/acquaintances to fill in. This obviously would have bias issues (as this wouldn't be a terribly all-encompassing cohort), but would be anonymised and contextualised, and would give an idea as to whether my experience was completely isolated or if other people had similar experiences.

It occurred to me that this information could trigger wider and more detailed studies that could impact on nursing and midwifery education.

There's an allied subject area which is notoriously understudied, that I think is also very important.

The reason I want to pursue the PhD is so that when it comes to talking about and presenting research findings, people will listen, rather than dismiss me as an uneducated nobody!

I think the idea above of trying to assist with research may be a really good idea to get a feel for practices. It may be that I'm woefully misguided and would make a terrible researcher, PhD student, but this should help me realise that!

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts here - I never knew there would be so much knowledge on MN! I think I will have a chat with the research staff in the department and discuss my thoughts with them. If only to offer the survey results a place of value to be stored (so I could let respondents know in advance).

You say that you haven't found the kind of research that you want to use - do you mind me asking where you've been looking? Do you have access to bibliographic databases of peer-reviewed publications? Am just asking - feel free to tell me to bugger off if am sticking my nose in...!

imho, if you're out to change the world, don't do a PhD. PhDs are about solid research, sometimes they contain radical ideas but the solid research part is paramount and PhDs are inherently conservative in their conclusions.

Sorry I assumed the question was theoretical.

On a practical level I would not accept a PhD candidate who did not have a BA and MA because I would be doing you, the University and myself a diservice. I would be particularly concerned about your ambition to combine quantitative and qualitive research methods (two mountains to climb) and bring together two disciplines, midwifery and psychology (for this I would expect academic experience in at least one discipline and work experience in the other).

If your goal is to disseminate your research and ideas you don't need a PhD though. Peer review journals consider papers anonymously so the reviewers would not know whether you are the world's authority or don't have any degree in the area. Many conference submissions are similarly anonymously peer reviewed, or alternatively everyone is welcome to present, so again the PhD issue is irrelevant. Keep in mind though that decent journals have low acceptance rates, in my field they range from 10% to 2% of submitted papers which can be quite disheartening.

That's a really good point Guitargirl. I've only been looking in earnest this last week, and looking to the internet as a first port of call.

I do have access to PRJs but not sure how to search them. I have found one or two potential studies that might get close to what I was looking for, but I can't be sure (not been able to preview the papers online).