DDs preferred choice not a Russell Group Uni

[RedRoses1111]

Hello

Dd is my one and only so this is all new to me. She is 17 and about to sit AS levels next month.

She wants to study English and Film and went to a University Fair today. She has returned laden with prospectuses but her favourite so far is the University of East Anglia which is not a Russell Group Uni. Other choices which do an English and Film course are Southampton, Kings, Exeter and Royal Holloway.

I read so much about the choice of Uni is just as important as the course and that employers won't even look at job applications unless they are from someone who went to a Russell Group Uni.

So, those of you who are more experienced or knowledgable about this, should she be discouraged from looking at non RG unis at this stage?

Many thanks for any insight/knowledge/advice you can offer.

If your daughter was planning to go to a low ranked college of higher education, when RG is an option, I would say you should advise her against it, but UEA is a quality institution. It sounds like it wis well regarded for this course. You can look into this to confirm it to your own satisfaction.

If you are very keen on having an uber prestigious degree, that keeps all doors open, straight English Lit without the film studies is probably more the thing. It depends on how sure she is about what she wants to do after this. If it is definitely film related, then a top course in this field is the key thing. If she might become an accountant or want to do another milk round type job, standard academic from RG would be better.

She should be allowed to choose. Why do you not want her to be independent? There are around 25 RG universities out of over 100. I do not know you but are you being a tad snobbish? Do you honestly think there are thousands of grads on the dole because they didn't go to a RG institution? It simply is not so.

Yes but the Black and Ethnic Minority Barristers have been to Russell Group Universities! I would bet a lot of money on that! The Bar Council does not say they have been to Bucks New and studied furniture making does it? The question was originally about why Russell Group is considered pre eminent. Quite a lot of universities are in pretty ordinary places with little of cultural value or much going on for a student. Mostly the Russell Group universities and their cities offer more for the student. This is why they are so popular. However, no-one should go where they are not happy. If High Wycombe floats your boat then why not?

I suppose a lots of us have a strong view on how the world works, and what advice to give.

My partner's a lawyer, so through him I know a lot of solictors and barristers. One of his former colleagues who is from a BME background has just been appointed as a judge. This person originally did an English degree, and went on to work in a variety of community organisations. His colleague then studied for the Common Professional Examination at what was then a polytechnic - now a new university - in a declining industrial town.

I very much dislike the view that a particular choice at 16 or 17 or 18 determines a whole future - especially if that's used to reinforce the idea that a well-meaning parent must therefore try to choose on behalf of their child..

It is important to choose with the long term consequences in mind, which can be hard for an 18 year old.
A particular course can look exotic and exciting, often moreso than a course which has the same name as a school subject, such as History or English.

It is vital that 6th form students realise that both the course title and the university it is from can open and close doors. If they know that and are sure they don't need the doors kept open that traditional courses from RG Unis do open, that is fine. The problem comes when a few years down the line, they realise their choice closed doors, which they had not realised it would at the time.

Children do need to have a say. As parents paying as large sum, I think we have the right and duty to make sure our children are fully informed about the potential consequences. If a child wants to enter a job such as film, where it is hard to get work, they need to be very clear about this and their true commitment to it needs to be questioned. It maybe the right thing to study.....but it may not....and career prospects are a vital thing to consider, not just love of the subject.

Unless my child was dead set in a non traditional subject, even after having the closed doors and career prospects clearly explained to them, I would be encouraging them to do a standard subject t at a RG Uni, if they were capable of doing it. Might sound boring, but finding that all the doors are open to you at 21 is wonderful and a benefit which will last them a lifetime.

Another RG graduate here, not English, my department scored a 5* in the RAE the year I started and the teaching was crap. RG universities are a group of research universities and as others have noted, research output bears no relation to the quality of undergraduate teaching. UEA has an excellent reputation and good luck to your daughter. It sounds like she knows what she is doing!

Upthechimney downwardly mobile here too!

I think a lot of it is about context. My own daughter is at the sort of school where students are steered towards 'safe choices' at Russell Group Universities. I do sometimes suspect the staff of trying to deliver to the parents and to 'sell' the school to prospective parents, by trying to get lots of students to study law, medicine etc at Oxbridge - rather than trying to encourage young people to think outside the box.

So my job as a parent would be to say - if asked - that the world is wider and more various than this depressingly narrow vision implies. Obviously if a child's one and only ambition is to earn a six figure salary in a lucrative profession, then yes, they must be firmly guided down the 'right' channels.

My impression is that a great many of the newer universities - there are three within twenty miles of where I live - are actually particuarly strong when it comes to links with industry, work placements, and they have impressively high graduate employment rates.

But it feels as if many of us are stuck in a mindset which is saying Oxbridge/Russell Group creates opportunities, but other universities don't. There are opportunities everywhere. All we can do is help our children to be aware of there many, many chances and choices they have at every stage of their development.

I agree that there are many opportunities at every stage of life. And a key character trait I would hope to help my children develop, is the reisilience to make opportunities out of situations which do not always turn out as we wish.
There are certainly many different paths at are open to our children and high paying lucrative careers cannot and should not be for everyone. They are the kind of careers which would make many of our children unhappy and we would do them no favours to steer them towards them.
It's all about information at the end of the day. They should make their own choices, but we should arm them with as much information as we can, so their decisions are informed.

marianne, would I be right in guessing you don't perhaps know as much about English or film as about law? Sorry if that's incorrect.

I went to a poncey university and studied English, and quite a few people I know ended up trying to get into the sorts of jobs you get into from English and Film degrees somewhere good. Some managed; more failed. You really need proper, well-respected training in this area.

Sure, it may be extremely hard for the OP's DD to get the job she wants. But she'll make it a whole lot harder for herself if she lets some well-meaning person urge her to do a less specific degree at a university that's perhaps better respected overall, but less good in this area.

It seems quite a big price for a bit of security, to me. Because you must remember that some good people always do get hard-to-get jobs, and IMO generally they will be the ones who really pushed for it and didn't let themselves be sidetracked into a safe option.

Yes, my degree was in English. University about as poncey as they get. I've spent some of my career working in literature-related fields, so know more about issues related to earning a living from writing.

I certainly would never be glib about the prospect of finding work in the media. And I wouldn't ever assume that a poncey degree in the arts, that didn't specifically focus on TV, film etc would open any doors whatsoever.

A guy I knew in the year above doing my poncey course left after two years - before graduating - as an opportunity arose in media journalism. Being a sensible bloke he grabbed it with both hands. (He'd been doing lots of student journalism in his area of interest, running a media society etc.) Often it's not just the course you do, but the other opportunities you make/create while you're at university....

Not sure Mumsnet is the place to go for advice on your kids' career choices really. It generates lots of heated debate - and there are some people who may know quite a bit about specific areas - but we can all just shout loudly about our personal prejudices too. I probably do a mixture of both!

Glad to see the thread is still going with lots of valuable input!

I have shown Dd the thread to let her see all of your advice and opinions. She has booked a visit day to UEA and will be booking for a Southampton Uni visit in July. I think we will have a breather then and do a few more in Sept/October.

In the meantime she is emailing out for any work experience she can get her hands on.

Will get her to chat it all through with her head of 6th form too.

Thanks everyone

I didn't meant to come across as being glib about it - just saying that, IME, it can be worthwhile to specialize early if you know what you want to do.

I suppose I've found the thread interesting because my daughter's at the same stage. At the moment she's focusing more on forthcoming AS levels, though she's talked quite a lot about courses, future open days etc over the last two or three months. There are a number of prospectuses on her bedroom floor

Compared to some parents we're being a bit more 'hands off' than 'hands on'. Our daughter is pretty good at amassing information, and thinking stuff through - though she doesn't find making final choices especially enjoyable. So Spouse and I may find ourselves being used as sounding boards in the nearish future.....

I think that when a teenager has a very clear idea of what they want to do and are keen to do a course related to it, even when they know it might not open a wide range of doors later, they should do it.

Many kids don't know what they want to do. They should be going for the safer options which keep doors open, because they need the greatest amount of flexibility at the next stage.

For those totally committed to working in one particular field, a very, specialised, highly regarded course at a less academic institution may well be best. As others have said, the course will be recognised in their field and they will have the chance to meet like minded people and make contacts. Not so useful though if there is a change of heart or direction. I think the level of commitment needs to be tested quite rigorously, because that kind of degree from that kind of place, might not open other doors so well.

I agree with you wombat - testing the commitment for a particular path would be sensible.

In this case though, just to reiterate for the sake of the OP, English and Film is not 'that kind of course' and UEA is not 'that kind of place'! It's a good course at a good place.

The only thing your DD might do, OP, is to consider how much on film your DD could do if she just took straight English. If its really an issue to some having 'film' in the title, then there may be an option to study film modules without having 'film' in the title? ( eg my DD is just finishing an English degree at an RG uni and has at least 3 film modules in her credits.....)

He'd been doing lots of student journalism in his area of interest, running a media society etc

This is key. I got my first "tenured" job (ho hum no such thing as tenure now) after my PhD because of a long background & near-to professional experience in an area that was not primarily the area of my BA & PhD.

Work experience is good, but in film/media, making one's own work both within the university and outside it is really important. The UEA course is not hands on film-making, so the OP's DD will need to make her own opportunities. Make films, enter short film contests etc etc etc.

The OP did not say,originally, that her DD wants to make films though,she was more concerned about employment prospects. So surely this is a key aspect in respect of choosing the degree course. UEA was so well known for its English courses when a well known author was there, but if you were comparing it now with, say, Exeter or Kings I would think twice. Film Studies tagged onto English will probably lower offers and I suspect Kings and Exeter might be harder to get into.

Discussion about opportunities acquaintances grasped are all well and good, but the employment prospects vary so much from person to person. English and Film can be a subject students go for if they are going to struggle to get into an RG university to study English, which is fiercely competitive. I agree completely with the view that young people, and parents, are frequently not aware of doors closing if uninformed choices are made. Parents should guide,not just on the course, but where is a great place to study too. What university is best for those extra activities that are vital? Also,OP, do not discount volunteering as a worthwhile summer occupation. Emailing for work experience can be daunting and full of disappointments. Also, if she actually wants to make films, there are more hands on courses available.

Ummm....

She would love a career in media/publishing/advertising, anything creative that involves writing. She would love to work in production or script dept etc

A possible issue with doing a straight English course and relying on the modules that cover film is (and it'll obviously depend where you are) that you might be taught by someone whose training is primarily or entirely in English, not film. I'm teaching a module at the moment where students are writing on film as well as written texts, and I have no training in film. That's fine for my students, because none of them are trying to specialize in film and actually very few of them are taking up the option to write on films. But it would probably not be ideal for someone who really wanted that part of the course to be specialized.

I went to Glasgow. I absolutely loved being there, but the lit degree was so dull. I changed to doing mostly English Language elements (it was the same English degree, but I did 1 lit paper and 8 or 9 language papers).

That was 20 years ago however.

That's a really good point ishouldknow. I wonder if you've been teaching my DD?!?

Gosh ... I doubt it, honestly, I teach very little and I've only just started. But tell her to check for MN scarves.

So UptheChimney, which of the listed careers is actually making films? Writing scripts is not the same as making films. There are post degree courses for this specialised work and it is not necessary to have studied Film to get on one. The broad range of media, advertising, publishing and anything with writing covers a huge array of possible jobs. Most of which are very sought after.

making one's own work can cover all sorts of roles. Not sure why you're being so rude.