Extra-curricular activites for university application.

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DS1 wants to be an engineer but has just been told by his school that he needs to improve his extra-curricular activities for his university application (he hopes to go in 2 years time). His hobbies are watching and playing sports with his friends, gaming and girls (although I don't think he mentioned the last two to his school but instead mentioned he plays trumpet).

Apparently he doesn't have measurable achievements in the sports or the music. He was in his primary school football but isn't good enough for his secondary school team (they only have one per age group). However he still goes to the training and plays football at least twice a week with his mates. He also plays golf and tennis when the weather is good but doesn't go in for competitions or medals preferring to play with his mates. Similarly with the trumpet he declined to do the grade exams or join the school band (not cool apparently) - prefers to play for pleasure (he no longer has music as a school subject but still plays). A friend who plays says he would be about Grade 4+.

Any advice?

I would agree that the sixth form extra curriculars aren't always relevant to university applications but they can come into their own for job applications. The things that DD1 couldn't squash into her personal statement suddenly became relevant when she was applying for a work placement.

I always advise my DCs to do something because they want to do it and because they think it will be interesting not because it "will look good on their personal statement" (I can get quite ranty about it if you let me)

Agree on the relevancy points.
It is what skills your DS writes in his personal statement that he has gained from his extra-curric. I have to disagree on school saying he needs to make it more measurable/impressive- he'd be better just drawing out skills then building on it with some voluntary work using the skills AND doing more things relevant to engineering.

For example football has taught him teamwork, work-life balance, strategy but this could be strengthened if he volunteered to help at a local club with the kids session.
Does he play the trumpet in a band (or could he join one)? he has therefore shown commitment, practice, perseverance
Agree that more is needed, but he'd have a big advantage doing headstart or young enterprise or some sort of STEM or CREST project rather than say joining a karate club! Relevant looks much more impressive.
Could he start up an engineering or DT club at his school for Year 7s when he is in sixth form? (Or work with the teacher who runs it).

Reading this thread I was starting to panic about DS personal statement. He has applied for engineering at Durham, Leeds, Southhampton, Bristol and Loughborough. His predictions are on the low side so was hoping personal statement would be good enough.
His PS included all the things mentioned above ie Headstart trips to various places ie Jett and Cern but he does mention how they inspired to look further into that field. His paid work experience which does include an engineering company and a well known electronic superstore , his work as a lifeguard and DofE. His only project was designing a sound system for his room which was inspired by his job, which he did for his Arwkright scholarship etc.
I dont think he included anything about always taking toys to bits (which he did) or anything like that because he wanted to avoid cliches. He has mentioned lifeskills DofE, volunteering and his work has taught him
Anyway yesterday got a offer from Southhampton when I was beginning to feel that along with his lowish prediction he was not going to get any offers at all.

Reading that about your son, Bruffin, makes me wonder why on earth anyone would interview DS!

DS1 wants to be an engineer but has just been told by his school that he needs to improve his extra-curricular activities for his university application (he hopes to go in 2 years time). His hobbies are watching and playing sports with his friends, gaming and girls

As others have said, it really doesn't matter -- it's the achieved GCSE grades and predicted A2 grades that most Admissions Tutors will look at.

I'm a former Admissions tutor in a Humanities subject always in research-led universities, and still do a lot of active interviewing for my current institution. While good extra-curricular stuff tends to point to a high achiever academically, we really really go by grades, demonstrable experience/aptitude for the discipline, and a personal statement (plus interview) which shows that the applicant knows what is involved in the university-level study of the discipline they're applying to study.

And please don't use the word "passion" ANYWHERE in a personal statement.

OTOH, could it be that the school thinks that his hobbies aren't particularly productive? In my experience, really high achievers are high achievers in all sort of areas. Watching sport and gaming don't really cut it as high achieving activities, IMO. I'd prefer to see teenagers developing interesting and useful creative or technical skills for pleasure as these will last them their whole lives: learning an instrument really well, getting involved in a community organisation, dancing or sports playing to a decent level -- but that's just my opinion (and my own experience & background).

I always advise my DCs to do something because they want to do it and because they think it will be interesting not because it "will look good on their personal statement" (I can get quite ranty about it if you let me)

Rant away webwiz! Just sounds like good parenting to me.

I'm finding this fascinating as dds Headteacher is pushing dd to do her DoE as dd at present would like to go to Oxbridge. Our feeling is that if that's what dd wants to do then she is better off spending her spare time doing the hobbies she loves and going to summer schools and any courses and comps in the subject she wants to specialise in. Of course if dd wants to do her DoE and can fit it in without compromising her other things that's fine but she is pretty focused.

It hard isnt it Lancelotte. As i said DS's predictions were lower than required for most of the courses he applied for but he can achieve what is required for the offer. When i read on here that they are not so keen on "bought in" extra curricular and predicted grades, I was beginning to worry as a lot of his PS may look like bought in ie Headstart and his trips. He is interested in nuclear engineering but he cant really build a nuclear reactor in his bedroom, so could only talk about the trips to Jet and the London power tunnels etc

FWIW I dont think DS has actually done anything because he thinks it looks good on his PS. He has thoroughly enjoyed his DofE, he is an outdoorsy boy any way.

I've just realised my message above might be ambiguous! Bruffin, what I meant was that your son sounded much more focused on what he wants to do and why, whereas DS's statement read (accurately enough) as if he kind of enjoyed a lot of things and couldn't decide between them.

BiL is an Oxbridge academic, sometimes involved in admissions, and always says that he is much more impressed with one extra-curricular activity pursued to a very high level, showing some individuality, creativity, persistence etc, than a whole long list of the usual sports captaincies, DoE gold, music grades etc - all of which are mainly promoted or facilitated by the schools anyway. It could be something voluntary or charitable, or it could be something like an in-depth blog on a particular subject.

DS is non-sporty, not interested in DoE etc, so I am always quite relieved to hear that, but so far he hasn't found anything extra-curricular that really excites him.

But would also agree with everyone else that it is really academic ability and evidence of genuine interest in the subject that seems to count for most.

Sounds like we should stick to our guns then and not let school push dd into things she doesn't want to do.

OhYouMerry
My DD felt big pressure to do D of E. She went to a school where 99% of the year did it up to silver, and all her friends did gold.
DD had no desire to do it, she loves sport but HATES the idea of walking/camping/arguing with friends (whatever 'life lessons' it teaches you!!)
She stuck to her guns despite the pressure and refused. Her qrgument was she did all the 'components' for D of E- vounteered, did sports and did skills. She would rather write it up separately as different activities and thought that actually looked better- she wasn't just doing these things because she had to for DofE, she was doing it because she wanted to. She did a Prince's Trust/Diana award (think that is what it is called, can't remember exactly) and other things more relevant to her course choice.
She is now at a top 5 russell group uni doing very well and does not regret not doing DofE one bit!
I think DofE has almost become so common that it is irrelevant on a UCAS form. Spending the time doing something different or more relevant to your course choice like Headstart/volunteering of your own accord etc almost looks far better.
Don't let your DD think her oxbridge offer will swing on D of E- it really really will not!!

PS- I'm not talking about Gold D of E- that is impressive! (But still not going to swing an oxbridge application and your DD is better putting her energy into something else if she doesn't want to do it)

Both my DDs went to schools where they are completely obsessed with all pupils having strings of extra curricular activities but I have come to the conclusion it is more about the school than the individual, so they can say year after year "another record breaking year of exam success but more importantly our pupils have also found the time to excel in a wide range of other activities" and thus perpetuate their marketing strategy. My girls are neither sporty or musical (though they strangled their instruments for seven years) and were sometimes made to feel like they were consequently at some huge disadvantage in the admissions process. Both have actually been very successful in the admissions process. One is a proper bone fide Science geek and only ever wanted to dissect small animals ( helped by the cat), but is also funny and widely
read and now is in her third year at uni with several years of her research career already in place and the other is a drama queen who has had some amazing performing opportunities outside school but only mentioned that in her PS in the context of the greater appreciation it has given her of Shakespeare's words.

How about just letting them develop as individuals with their own interests and "passions" even if those don't fit the school's sausage machine template?

Agree with Dalmation. So many kids do DofE now it has no (excuse the odious expression) "wow factor". Building orphanages in some remote outpost has become a joke activity.

From what I've read on university websites, they are only interested in the academic side of things. Medicine requires evidence of interest and commitment, but then again, shadowing the Surgeon General gains fewer Brownie points than helping out with the WRVS trolley. The latter is true, friends with Head of Admissions for RG Med School. Even worse the shadower's House Master at top public school phoned him up to try to put in a good word. Friend even more unimpressed.

How much does the school reference count for then?

Lottie
he isnt really that focused, he is dyslexic and gets distracted very easily.

bruffin - perhaps not in his bedroom, but how about the garden shed? www.theguardian.com/life/opinion/story/0,12981,1261144,00.html

Can I just ask if head boy/girl would make any difference to the admissions people?

Unlikely to impress me.

Look, I think teens should do useful, creative, and enjoyable activities in addition to school learning. It's about education, not just schooling (the difference is significant). But they shouldn't be doing activities because they look good, or will help in university applications. They won't unless they can demonstrate in their Personal Statement that such activities contribute to their understanding in the widest sense of the subject they want to study.

But productive hobbies (not clubbing, sports spectatorship, or gaming, sorry, unless gaming includes programming) will give children wonderful resources to grow & develop as human beings, and give them interests for the rest of their lives.

rightsaidfrederick
DS did show me a film about someone who had done it, not sure if it was David Hahn or not. I told him not to get any ideas of doing it himself

schools where they are completely obsessed with all pupils having strings of extra curricular activities
Yes - DS2 is currently choosing 6th form. The one with the highest results (selective) is also the one where DofE , EPQ and General Studies are pretty much compulsory.
Knowing that his brother has had an interview for Oxbridge and offers from four other good unis without doing all those things has made him decide to go to the sixth form college where the extra curriculars are available but nobody thinks any less of those who choose not to do them.

I hope this isn't too offthread for OP but, in the context of medicine having been mentioned and the ubiquity of trips to far off places on the applications of the wealthy, I know that Asian friends acknowledge that there has been an arms race in terms of sending DCs to work in poor hospitals in Asia which has now run its course. However the waiter (not owner) in a local restaurant has a son applying for medicine and mentioned that he was doing all he could to support him with his application including getting "experts" in the community to vet his PS (and, he proudly said, they had rewritten it, because it was "a bit naïve") and saving up to send him home to work in the local hospital. My heart sank. But it makes you think that there is a danger of things having swung the other way being an actual disadvantage. Middle Class parents will know that it is important for PS to sound like were written by 17 year olds and reflect their personality and cleaning poo up in old people's homes trumps the trip abroad but for disadvantaged pupils with ambitious parents prepared to make sacrifices they are in danger of being unfairly stereotyped......

My 2 cents ... I applied for English in 2006. They did not mention my sports medals (ah, the days when I could run), the fact that I was Head of The 6th form Committee, or even my musical instruments, or any of that bollocks.

They asked me what I'd read, what I wrote (creative writing), the drama I had participated in and how that informed my reading of drama. Luckily I enjoyed sports and the committee. Otherwise they would have been a complete waste of time and tbh? Not great preparation for 3 years sitting in a library.

Just focus on what will prepare him best for the degree, because I honestly thought at university, they hated us being involved in extra-curriculars (unless directly helpful to the degree) - meant less time in the library!