State of shock/worry/ignorance

[AndyMurraysBalls]

You think you know your children, don't you?

DS is 17 and in year 13 doing A levels. He is also working about 30 hours a week.

I had no idea that he wanted to go to university.

I thought he was just getting these A levels done and then getting out there like everyone else.

He is bright and did well in his GCSEs and really wasn't sure about staying on, but eventually decided to do A levels. I supported this decision (although I was very surprised) and actually thought he had been put under pressure by the school to stay on. (Schools seem to be very into this these days).

We have just had a Parents' Day (which seemed very bizarre to me - he's 17 FFS) and the teacher started rattling on about references and statements and applications.

DS has said that he isn't absolutely sure yet that university is for him but that there are deadlines looming (hence the teachers getting stressed).

What do I need to know? I've googled but there is so much information out there that I can't take it in. I need shorthand facts.

I'm guessing a few MNers must have DCs at university who could please help me.

I've heard about all these people with debts and having to find £9000.00 a year etc, but have always just let it all go over my head because I never thought it was going to apply to me yet. I have a DD who is 14 , and think that she may very well want to go to university because she is a very different character (loves studying and reading stuff) so wasn't going to get too stressed about it all for a few years because things change so much.

Help .....!

Good grief he could consider something like PPE at Oxford if his school really is the war zone you describe. Especially if he can get his B up to an A. He may decide he'd rather walk across a bed of nails than go to Oxford or Cambridge but if he wanted to try for it then he could take a year out and try next year (deadline for Oxbridge applications is much earlier). Both Oxford & Cambridge are very keen to encourage bright self motivated students from his sort of background - they struggle to get enough applicants because people assume they're places for toffs.

Just food for thought. He may prefer to go somewhere else & not want to touch oxbridge with a barge pole but he should have a good choice of universities if he gets those grades & I'd encourage him to aim high. He could always apply this year to non-Oxbridge then take a year out & reapply if he aces the exams and decides he wants to give it a go.

Good luck to him whatever he decides

AMB, don't worry about the money. If your son can get results like those while working long hours, he will be able to do a substantial amount of part-time work alongside his degree and in the holidays and still get a good result at the end of it. It sounds as if his paid work is very important to him and depending on what it is it should be a huge boost to his CV when it comes to looking for his first permanent job.

Unlike others, I'd say he should think long and hard about applying to Oxford or Cambridge. 1. It's too late to do it this year so it would mean a gap year. 2. The terms at both are so intensive that undergraduates are very strongly discouraged from having jobs in term-time. That might come as a culture shock. (Although, as the terms are also very short, it means he could get quite a lot of paid work in during the holidays.) 3. There actually are some other rather good universities in the UK!

I take it he's doing Maths? That's a big help with Economics, I understand.

Good luck to you both!

PintofTea Don't you think that, just sometimes, it's best to grab an opportunity while it's hot? (I'm old, I know this stuff...)

Do you think he would spend his gap year (!) travelling - or might he be persuaded to increase his working hours to the full 37? And then be persuaded that there's no point in giving up a paying job?

Oh, I hope he goes as soon as possible.

And I wish more than anything that I could have written something kind and positive to the OP - but.....

Your lack of engagement in your sons education is depressing.
He is to be congratulated in his achievements so far, I'm not surprised he hid his ambitions from you as you sound really chippie.
Please encourage him to talk to any friends children who are at university, even to go and see them for a night to get a taste of uni life.
And working30 hours a week is a shame in upper sixth.

Hello, Sthing, nice to see you away from The Archers!

From AMB's posts I have a picture of a clever, determined and focussed young man who has got his head down and worked in spite of not much liking school. I would have no concerns that he will be easily influenced to do something he doesn't want to do. If I were a potential employer, I'd snap somebody like that up in a heartbeat at the other end of his degree.

I heard something on the radio the other day about graduate employment. If I understood it correctly, there is a lot of evidence now that young people's employment patterns are something like this:

1. Graduates - all subjects, all universities - are more likely to be employed than non-graduates.
2. They aren't all doing what would once have been classed as graduate level jobs, so doing a degree is not necessarily a passport to a huge salary or any kind of financial security.
3. Non-graduates, however, are struggling to get any sort of jobs.
4. Graduates are therefore better off in the long run, even when you take into account the loan repayments.

This makes sense to me. I can't remember for sure what percentage of 18-year-olds go to university, but it must be something like 40% now. A generation or two ago most of those young people would have done well to leave school with a few good O levels, never mind A levels. Fewer than 10% would get a degree. University is now normal for all reasonably bright teenagers, not just the elite.

I'm all for a bit of independence and a good work ethic but....
If you really want to help him you should encourage him to give up a chunk of the 30 hours a week he works and support him financially. He is still in full time education and technically supposed to be a dependant child.

I think that I'm a bit more sympathetic towards the OP, because not every family puts further education as a high priority, not everyone knows about University, not all teenagers tell their parents about what they're up to, and unfortunately some families do still see University as something for other people. It's also perfectly possible the OP's ds has just hit his stride during A levels and it's a surprise to him too!

I'm sure I've read posts from degree educated middle class parents who have just found out their dc's can't/ won't go to University and they aren't given a hard time.

I actually find it refreshing to hear of a family where the offspring aren't being pushed to do what the parents think they should do/what the parents did.

"Lack of engagement in your son's education"????

I have tried to attend every single parents' evening since he was 4 years old including having to threaten to walk out of job for time off work for it.

I know of many parents who haven't attended a single one. (My parents never went to any that I recall, either.)

There were parents at DC's primary who sent them with no breakfast and a bag of Skips for their lunch.

My DCs had a proper lunchbox with protein and fruit/veg as well as a few well-considered carbs every day. Even (shoot me if you must) the occasional Penguin bar.

I read with my children whenever I could. I taught them to write their letters and then their names long before they started school and we used to count and say all our colours and days of the week and months etc at every relevant opportunity: on the bus, in the shops, in the pushchair....

I have purchased books I can't afford. Paid for trips I can't afford.

I have helped with homework making myself late for night shifts.

I know of parents who have never done ANY reading or writing with their children or ever showed them any interest in their work.

Because of the support I gave them, they were equipped with the tools to become wonderful, wonderful human beings.

My children are bloody brilliant and we are a team. My children and I are absolutely engaged.

DS has become very independent, confident and self-resourceful over the last 2 years and is now the absolute determiner of his own destiny.

We have reached an important cross-roads in DS's life that I was not prepared for and I find myself a bit lost and suddenly I am not engaged?

No, sorry.

Well I'm glad you found out now before it was too late for him this year, or before his plans had progressed so much that he'd made all his decisions without involving you at all.

I do feel a twinge of sadness for him though, fancy being in a position where as a teenager you don't feel it's right for whatever reason to talk to your parents about massive future forming stuff.

Please get up to speed on the benefits of university so you can have a balanced and informed discussion with him. Without wanting to bash you at all... What you've written here sounds full of stereotyping and negativity which are probably engrained as you can't see it? I just want you to be so so careful that you don't limit your sons future by an attitude which isn't built on informed thinking but a general assumption.

And NO, it's GCSEs that the media always go on about mostly, with a bit of A level bashing for good luck. Look up the statistics on grades, I think you'll find that students getting AAAB are still the absolute cleverest and accomished students - they Really don't hand them out like sweeties.

For your son to be predicted these grades without family support and involvement, and an almost full time job... Well that means your son is exceptional. Please get your head together and support him, he's been being amazing underneath your nose!

The job market is awful btw, and although a degree is no longer a guaranteed high income for life... But without a degree he will be overlooked for a VAST amount of jobs that 20yrs ago he'd have been able to work his way up in with minimal qualifications. Imagine you dissuade him (for the best positive reasons) from doing a degree and then for every job he applies to he doesn't even get to interview, as there are 100s of graduates applying, so they don't look at him twice. Yes he may well be able to carry on where he's currently working - but is that all you want for him for the rest of his life?

Sorry it's really hard to reply in a way that doesn't make you feel got at, I just really want you to rise to this unexpected thing happening and help your son fulfil his potential in life.

impty - I think you might understand me better than I understand myself there. Thank you. No-one in our family was at school beyond 16 before. That was for rich people who didn't need the money. DS has really matured and become incredibly confident and independent just lately and you might be right about his development.

Just to throw more complications into the mix (sorry)...

I think it would be really sensible of your DS to investigate international universities - especially American. They have amazing funding for students that they want - and a bright, self motivated one is going to fit the bill. He could end up in less debt by going to the US than he will staying the UK, including travel/living costs. There are also really good European unis that teach in English, and help you find a term time job that fits around your studies, with lower fees than the UK. I know this is all a bit last minute, so it may well be worth him thinking about a year out anyway - if he has as good a work ethic as you say he won't fritter it away!

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9575023/Study-in-the-USA-how-to-apply-to-a-US-university.html has info that might help

AndyMurraysBalls It might be worth you having a look at the student room website . There is a lot of information on there about applying to university and how the process works. It would probably be a useful place for your son to get advice too. www.thestudentroom.co.uk/ Perhaps have a look at the UCAS website, and some of the websites of the universities he is applying to as well.

Does your son know exactly what he is going to apply for, and has he got most of his application sorted? The deadline for equal consideration is 15th January, so he needs to get everything sorted and sent off by then. If he is still a bit unsure, then taking a gap year and applying next autumn is also an option. Applying with known grades would enable him to apply to more asking for higher grades, especially if he does manage AAA. He would also get unconditional offers, as he would already have his results.

If he applys this year, he will get conditional offers, and so not know exactly where he is going until he gets his results in August. Once he has all his offers, he will chose a firm and an insurance choice. The firm choice is his first choice, and the insurance is his back up, in case he doesn't do as well as expected in his A2s.

The only thing you will absolutely HAVE to do is give some financial information with his student finance forms. This is used to assess the level of loan and grant he is given. If your income is low, he will get more of the maintenance loan as a grant, which he does not have to pay back. He may also be eligable for bursaries from the university, which again, he would not have to pay back.

You may also want to think about finances for next summer. University accomadation often needs a deposit paying before the loan comes through. As your son is working, he may be able to save up for this himself. However, it's an unexpected cost that can trip people up.

Hopefully, once you have done a bit of reading, you will feel like you understand the system a bit more, and can give him more support. It can be very confusing, though, so I'm sure people will be happy to answer other questions you might have.

Wow - your DS sounds like an amazingly mature and intelligent young man. Hopefully the school will have gone through applications with him already and he will know about UCAS. So very basically, he will choose up to six (i think?) courses/university and with grades like that he absolutely SHOULD be looking at oxbridge, although i don't know what the best university is for Economics/finance type degrees, i suspect your DS will have an idea of where he wants to go. The fact that he comes from what sounds like a tough school yet he still has those grades speaks volumes about him and of course, about you as his parents - you have done a great job and should feel proud of yourselves.

I don't really know about how the finances work as it was a while since i went to uni as a mature student so it was a bit different, but again i am sure the school will be able to help.

I know he has pretty much sorted himself in terms of prospectuses and open days but I would absolutely take an avid interest and encourage him every step of the way, universities openly welcome parents on open days.

I understand where you are coming from, it is all a bit daunting and the finance is a worry, but I just know your DS will get where he wants to be. I bet he is excited :)

oh and he will make his applications based on his expected grades, i think someone may have mentioned above that if he hasn't made applications in time he will still be able to go and will be in the good position of having an unconditional offer with known grades and a gap-year can then be used for him to get a job and save up to help him through.

Don't panic. In simple terms:

No, you won't have to find money upfront. He will get a student loan, and it isn't a problem later in life, they don't count against you for mortgages and such. Repayments are peanuts, its really not an issue. He may also get a bursary which he doesn't have to pay back.

Most Unis will find him somewhere to live for the first year, some longer.

AAB makes him very saleable. Unis can recruit as many AAB students as they like. Tis means that he ought to get some good offers, and if he does better than he expects, he can upgrade in the summer after he gets the results.

He needs to apply somewhere with a good reputation for getting jobs afterwards. All the Unis have to publish their employment stats in their websites, so make sure he checks. Go for what they call a Russell Group University, that improves his chances in employment. I am a bit aut economics with finance. The course doesn't need "finance" in the title, he should go for the best Uni he can get to, not the shiniest course title.

Sad to hear that you feel Oxbridge is for rich and well connected people. I went there as the first in my family to go to Uni. If he went, he would be with loads of people just like him. Realistically, he'd need A*AA to be in with a chance, but if his school is a war zone then they would be flexible- he would get what they call a "flag" on his application. Meaning he will get a special double check to see if he ought to get an interview. That said, the economics courses are a bit different from other places, not so easy to do straight economics.

Well done to your DS for getting his good grades and I wouldn't worry too much about his job. My DS worked about that amount of hours when he was in 6th form, had to give up his supermarket job when he went to Uni apart from Xmas holidays and got quite bored. He managed to get a job with the same supermarket in his Uni city and is in his 3rd year now and is working about 20-30 hrs a week, 40 in the holidays, but seems to thrive on it and is much happier than when he wasn't working.

Thank you to all those who have offered advice and links and reference points. I have looked briefly and they all seem helpful/useful and easy to follow for someone unfamiliar with that kind of world.

For those who have criticised me; you have polarised the very attitudes that make people from my background feel that we have no place in the privileged world of further education. Once I know my stuff, and if DS decides university is for him then I shall be so fucking engaged in his education that I will encourage him to avoid people who look down on people like us.

In my opinion, some of you belittle honest, simple, hard work which is what I was brought up to believe in. Is it any wonder that my words display what YOU interpret as belittling education?

It's a shame that Uni is still a strange world to so many families, because we are funded to serve the whole country. Oneself, those of who work at Unis will welcome your DS with open arms.

Speaking of which.. The biggest risk to your DS coming from a school and a family with less experience of HE is he chooses the wrong Uni, and goes to one with a poor track record of teaching and employment. Often the dodgier courses have lovely titles but that's about. You want to be getting some serious bang for your buck.

Do you mind sharing which A level subjects he is doing, and if he has picked a Uni yet?

Look at the UNISTATS website and you can sort all the economics courses together and see all the data on entrance requirements, employment stats, student satisfaction, etc. make sure he chooses a good one.

Oneself=OP, I never know what this iPad will do next, I think it hates me

Yes to looking at universities very carefully, I was like your son and had fantastic parents but they were in no position to advise on courses. (You have a lot more info to hand via the internet but it sounds as if not a lot of time to assimilate it, good luck!) I went off to University and discovered I had among the top grades on my course.

Ignore the critics on here.

OP, I did not go to university,my sister was the first person in my whole extended family to go to uni. I come from a working class background, both of my parents left school at 15 as their families did not see the point of carrying on so to imply that I look down on you would be ridiculous.

What my parents did for me, 30+ years ago, was to be passionate about education, they were constantly encouraging both of us to acheive the best we could as they believed education was the route out of the poverty their families suffered pre war. They researched universities as much as they could(without the benefit of the internet) and
I think that you now realise that this is what you should do for your son, good luck to you both, I'm sure, with your help, he will succeed at whatever he chooses to do.

I'm frankly disgusted with the way that some people on this forum have responded to the OP. Here is someone who is clearly completely unfamiliar with higher education, and for whom here is no tradition of going to university in the family. So, they're at the start of a very steep learning curve, but are clearly willing to learn. Unfortunately, by coming on here half of what they've heard is that they're hurting their son. It must be nice to exist in social circles where going to uni is the norm, and people value education for what it is, but not everyone does. Can't MN help someone, rather than being so catty?

**

Anyway, here's rightsaidfrederick's potted guide to university for the uninitiated

Applications
Your son will apply via UCAS for five universities. This must be done by January 15th, though his college will probably have an earlier internal deadline, possibly before Christmas. He should aim for universities that are around his grade predictions - for instance, 3 that ask for AAB, one or two at ABB and one at BBB. The entry requirements are listed on every university's website, but as a starting point, www.whatuni.com lets you search by entry requirements.

However, I'm not sure I'd recommend applying to Oxbridge, given that

• the deadline's already passed, so he'd have to take a gap year
• Oxford would make him study management instead of finance, which doesn't seem to be what he wants
• both want A*AA, but he's only predicted AAB
• even if he did happen to get A*AA and reapply on a gap year, entry is still something of a lottery.

He will then receive conditional offers from some or all of his universities. This means that they want him to come, subject to him getting certain grades in his A Levels. He will then choose a firm university (the one he really wants to go to) and one insurance university (the one he'll go to if he doesn't get good enough grades to go to his firm, but still gets the grades required by his insurance). A Level results come out on Thursday 14th August.

There's some information here from UCAS for parents and guardians about the application process www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/parents-and-guardians

Finance
With regards to student finance, he will get a tuition fee loan for the full £9000, so no one has to pay upfront. The money for his living costs is means tested, comes partly in loans and partly in grants, and is based on your household income (parent he lives with + any live in partner).

Student loans aren't like normal debt. In fact, they're the nicest loans that he'll ever get in his whole life. He only pays back 9% of anything he earns over £21,000 per year, so if he earned £22,000 per year then he'd pay back £90 per year, and if he earned £30,000 per year he'd pay back £810 per year. As you can see, this is very affordable.

If he never earns over £21k, he never pays anything back. Anything he hasn't paid back after 30 years is wiped off. It doesn't affect his credit score or ability to get a mortgage, and bailiffs will never come knocking on his door. This is a nice little calculator that shows how much repayments are www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-finance-calculator

This is a useful guide www.practitioners.slc.co.uk/media/494509/sfe_parents_quick_guide_1314_d.pdf

You can work out how much he'll receive in loans and grants using this handy calculator www.studentfinance.direct.gov.uk/portal/page?_pageid=153%2C4680136&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

If you're a low income family (and you'd be surprised what counts as low income), he'll also be eligible for a guaranteed non-repayable bursary from the uni itself. These vary from uni to uni, and details can be found on the website of the uni itself. Bursaries can be quite substantial - my own uni gives out up to £3000 per year.

The Course
Economics and finance is essentially the study of money and how it flows around the 'system'. It involves a lot of maths, so I hope that he is doing maths at A Level, otherwise he will have fairly limited options, with regards to which unis he can go to for economics.

University degrees are not like schools, in that every university designs its own courses, writes its own exams and marks its own exams. This means that there are very great differences in what is taught at two different universities, even when the names of the courses are identical. So, it is incredibly important that your son does his research and makes sure that he looks at the modules taught at each different uni, and makes sure he likes the look of them.

Economics graduates are highly employable, and so long as he gets good grades he will have lots more career opportunities open to him than he does now, he will be able to earn more than he can now, and he will be able to choose a job that he enjoys.

I'd really, really, really recommend that you and your son join www.thestudentroom.co.uk - it's a website full of people who are applying to university who help each other out, plus a sizeable contingent of admissions tutors, current students, teachers and knowledgeable others who help applicants out.

Any other questions, do feel free to ask :)

Agree with beast - his biggest risk is selling himself short. He is clearly clever enough to set his sights on any university he wants. Also agree the more marketable (post degree) courses are unlikely to have 'finance' in the title. With an economics degree from a good university he should be very marketable. I was the first person in my family to go to uni & went to oxford. I have had many hard graft jobs & am still happy to do pretty much anything legal if I need money. I don't see myself as above any work. But it is nice having the options that a good degree from a good university can bring you. For example when I was doing my PhD I waitressed until I had enough students to tutor that meant I could drop the waitressing & earn much more in fewer hours. Having options is always a good thing.

And I am sorry for some of the comments OP. There's lots if excellent advice on this thread though so just ignore the snarky comments.