UCAS forms sent - just the waiting game now !

[snowyowl70]

My super organised DD1 has had email today to say her forms/reference have been received and should be at her chosen Unis in the next 48 hrs !!!!! So the waiting begins - to those seasoned parents who have done this before can you remember how long they had to wait for their first responses ? At least 2 out of her 5 may call her for interview (MFL) so am guessing these might be fairly on the ball ?

My friend's daughter who is doing Engineering did an internship this summer with Arup. It was one long charm offensive / party, seems like the manager in charge was given a budget for schmoozing them, company funded pub crawls etc. I think some work was done but that wasn't what we heard about I think she was paid well as well....

It's worth remembering that my dh is only in one particular field of engineering, which has up to now struggled with recruitment (the industry I mean). One course he was involved with was at a ratio of over two thirds overseas students to less than one third UK.

It may be completely different in other engineering disciplines (in which he is not involved) & it sounds like things may be improving.

Applicants with the French bac S get lower offers from British universities for Engineering than for Economics, across the board. My perception is still that it easier to get a place for an Engineering degree than an Economics degree.

Economics is more popular. Supply and demand.

Oh blimey! I have a yr 12 child who intends to apply for Economics next year, I don't think he realises how competitive it will be.

chemenger Just out of interest what is the position on recruiting female engineers?

Antaresisastar, which Universities?

The problem seems to lie mainly with the big 5: Cambridge, Oxford (Economics and Management), Warwick, LSE and UCL. The rigorous courses which both employers and Masters programmes like. LSE has 20 applicants for each place. Each year they turn down lots of candidates with straight A*s.

Beyond that there is not necessarily a problem. Economics is not a lab subject and so can be cheap to run and relatively easy to expand. So you see Universities like Bristol expanding and, at least for those coming from poor performing schools, reducing offer requirements.

The big 5 in contrast appear keen to maintain or improve their world rankings so are competing against well-resourced American Universities for top flight academics. They have the added problem that fee capping both for home (UK and EU) and International students limits their income and means that they are seriously under-cutting other world ranked institutions, sending demand through the roof. They are also looking for students who can cut the mustard in maths, which is often better taught elsewhere in Europe (Hungary for example has a superb tradition of teaching maths) and elsewhere in the world (China)

Private schools generally can ensure that capable mathematicians get grades which reflect their abilities, so can a number of state schools especially in the over-heated South-East where competition for resources is a fact of life. (Sorry - an odd statement trying to convey quite a big north south cultural divide.) The London institutions in particular have a problem. They want to, stereo-type alert - recruit able students from ooop North from poor performing secondaries. However these are not being delivered in sufficient quantity, and you don't just need maths but a good subject choice. Plus many of these students will be wary of London, the lack of campus and the high cost of living.

Anyway good news for us. LSE have come through with an offer. A bit of a surprise because though DS is predicted 4As and a B, LSE had indicated that they would not offer against Further Maths nor the non-facilitating subject, leaving him short of the required AAA. In the event they are allowing the non-facilitating subject.

(Not getting Warwick was strange because they would have allowed the non-facilitating subject, do a lot of Erasmus and he has a Goethe qualification which is the equivalent of an AS, though thinking about it they probably have masses of bi-linguals from the EU who are better qualified to take advantage of their study abroad programme. Given they went as far as passing his application to another faculty who then made him an offer, presumably means that the problem was simply the weight of numbers applying for economics and that he was otherwise a student they wanted.)

So advice:

1. Do as well as you possibly can in AS. As are not enough, they will look at UMS scores.

1. Do as much maths as you can, and as well as you can. Where necessary finding the right sixth form. If there is a problem accessing top quality maths teaching make sure this is down on the UCAS form. Cambridge in particular appear to be looking for Maths UMS scores in the high 90s from pupils from high performing schools.

1. Consider a fourth A level, especially if taking double maths through to A2. If you can get an A at A2 in an essay subject, it is probably worth doing this rather than an additional science subject. (My perception is that there is some move back towards valuing qualitative as well as quantitative skills.)

1. Read round the subject. A subscription to the Economist, books on popular economics, articles on the internet, entering essay competitions. We are guessing DS was helped by the fact that he has regularly attended LSE Public Lectures. Registration is electronic so they would have been able to verify.

1. If you are relatively disadvantaged from an educational perspective, then talk it through with the admissions departments. They want the best students, not simply students from the best schools. So, say you have had a series of supply teachers or whatever, tell them and you may well be advised to send a separate email.

1. Counter-logical, but if want a place on one of these courses you might be better off applying to 4 of them, rather than ensure you have a good set of alternatives. Commitment to the sort of course they offer is important and they can see who else you applied to.

1. (And where we went wrong.) Recognise that this is going to be as competitive as medicine. Lots of people will wait months. You may need to reapply.

Such a relief. Now to get the grades.

I do think the system needs to be revamped. Perhaps something like BMAT which would test quantitative and qualitative skills and give Universities an added tool with which to sift the ever-growing heap of applications. Or something like the US system of early decision. You can focus on one institution, so know where you stand early on, and they can manage their numbers better.

Congratulations to Needmoresleep's DS. The LSE Economics course is famous worldwide and has huge numbers of applicants.

Plus it gives hope to those still waiting....

One thing though, the universities don't know where else you have applied and for what until after you reply to any offers you get. It used to be the case that you had to build in another layer of strategy because they did know what preference they were and where else you had applied and for what and the most sought after unis had a habit of taking umbrage if they weren't first preference and / or you hadn't put them alongside universities they regarded as equals and /or you hadn't demonstrated commitment to your course by only applying for that (though obviously a ps is going to be less effective if it is aimed at two completely different course subjects). Some good candidates used to end up with no offers simply because they had played it wrongly which I am guessing is why it has changed. The most they can guess at is that a good candidate applying before the Oxbridge deadline has included Oxbridge in their choices, hence some come back very quickly on those early applications, UCL had DD in for an interview the following week and everyone else there for the charm offensive interview had also applied to Oxbridge. So that at least is one less thing to worry about

The point about Universities knowing where else you applied and the value of applying to other similar and equally competitive course was something I picked up during a conversation with a senior LSE academic following an alumni talk.

Did not have enough cheek to give him my son's name and promise a bequest/donation in exchange for a place. However did manage to suggest he finds the student room thread on applying to LSE and get a flavour of how awful the process was and the poor public image this provided!

I wonder why he said that then, how would they know? It is pretty clear in the UCAS advice, see section 5, first bullet point. www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/undergraduate/filling-your-application

Unless it is the point about targeting you personal statement (and the school doing likewise in their reference) to the requirements of the course, and that is pretty much unique to those institutions.

Well done for your son Needsmoresleep - brilliant. You must be very relieved.

One question - I had a look at your link Shooting and the text (see below) implies that once you have made your two selections, your firm knows which insurance you have chosen and vice versa. Is that correct? Or is it blind to the very end?

your universities/colleges won't see where else you've applied until after you reply to any offers you get.

Littleham I am not sure, it's interesting. Certainly with DD1s friends who had missed meeting their offers on results day, the school was busy ringing around to confirm the firm wouldn't take them and whether their insurance would now take them, I'm not sure whether there was any process going on via UCAS? Given it's tendency to crash at the most crucial moments it could just have not been accessible

Or perhaps the unis have secret meetings undercover to share who has applied etc. they could meet, oh I don't know, in the Russell Hotel?

Once you've firmed and insured all five choices are able to see where a student has applied and which universities were chosen.

And well done on the LSE offer - wait over!

Shootingatpigeons is correct. At the point acceptance/rejection decisions are made, universities don't know where else you've applied. See also here:
university.which.co.uk/advice/can-universities-see-where-else-i-apply-to-and-could-this-affect-my-chances

In addition (I'm involved in admissions) in my department we're explicitly told we must not ask applicants where else they've applied.

I think Littleham was asking about the position once an applicant had firmed through UCAS?

As far as I know we know whether an applicant has made us their firm or insurance choice but not which other university they are holding. We definitely don't know the full list of where they have applied. Sometimes it is obvious from the personal statement that we are a fall back for intending medics and vets, which makes no difference to the offer we make. After the end of the process, once the academic year has started, we can get all the details of where else our applicants applied and what courses they ended up on.

"I think Littleham was asking about the position once an applicant had firmed through UCAS?"

venturabay Yes, I know. I was confirming that the initial statement ".. and they can see who else you applied to." was wrong (or at least extremely misleading), since this sort of misinformation is potentially damaging to applicants. Hence the "at the point acceptance/rejection decisions are made" in my answer.

Thanks everyone for this information. It must be tricky for universities to plan.

Yes I see that dapoxen. Although I do think that in the old days when universities could see all applications, there was a good deal of exaggeration about just how important it was to position universities in a certain way. The strong applicants I knew at school put down Bristol/ Durham/ Exeter / London in any old order after Oxford or Cambridge if applied to, and the decent applicants all got places at all - though the weaker ones may well not have done and may then have put it down to poor strategy. I think there's still a lot to be said for being bold; as the medic parents on this thread keep saying: one offer is all that you need. I advise my DC that there's no point putting down any 'insurance' unless they can see themselves being completely happy there. Schools have an absolute need to cover themselves (with parents primarily) by advising a 'safe' insurance, but I as a parent don't have any particular constraints, and I've always thought a year out would be better than going to a university a DC might well hate. It's just a waste of a choice.

Ventura is right. Our rocky ride was due largely to DS applying to four very competitive courses, ones he was certain he wanted to do. One offer is all you need.

These are big investment and life decisions, and in Y13 I think it is worth looking forward. If your result are good, would you accept your 4th or 5th choice or choose to reapply or go into clearing? If they are not good is the likely offer from your insurance likely to be sufficiently low, given many offers are similar, or might you want to resit/find an apprenticeship/consider another subject? If you are not likely to take up the place, don't apply.

Post results applications are obviously different. You have a much better idea of what you are likely to get and you want to reserve a choice or two for something sure fire.

In our case the school's advice had been spot on. DS would be fine for four very competitive courses, however the competition was such that he could get all four or he could get none. (A bit like the medics.) Then not applying to all four restricts your chance of getting any.

The one problem obviously is that the process can take a very long time, and applying to sought-after courses will make it worse. DN who started medical school this year, went right to the wire and only heard around easter time. On other courses demand patterns are changing quite fast, so it might be difficult to predict how long you will be left in limbo. A couple of DS friends have decided to leave UCAS till next year and focus on their A2s this, in many ways a wise decision. .

What I meant to say was that DN found the wait to hear from medical schools less difficult because she expected it.

I guess those with STEP dependent offers have an even worse time. Our poor DC.

Needmoresleep - hurrah, congrats for your ds.

dd has had a letter from Exeter saying her 3A offer means she can get, say, A*AB (ie go up one and down one as long as not your main subjects) as long as any specific grade conditions also met. Letter was in response to queries from offer-holders', they said, and they wanted to clarify while people are deciding on offers. It seems sensible but I had not heard of this before - anyone?

I think that we may have this dilemma soon, as it seems that History is more competitive. What do you think my second dd should do?

The advice from school is to have the range of options eg. 2 higher unis, 2 middle and one reserve, but so many of the universities want AAA. Also, should dd2 apply for history at all if she doesn't get an A in her AS? Her second favourite subject is Geography.

There seem to be a few of us on this thread with another child going through the UCAS system from September, so would anyone like to carry this on into next year?

lalsy - We have had one university say that students who slip one grade should ring up on results day and as long it is not too disastrous they may be accepted! No letter though, so we don't have it in writing....