Is there any value to a 4th A2 level for Oxbridge / RG ?

[SecretPlansAndCleverTricks]

DD is taking 3 academic AS that will enable her to apply for her chosen subject, plus Theatre Studies that has nothing to do with her chosen Degree course, but that she really enjoys.

She is bright and hardworking enough to study four, and the school allow it. Would there be any benefit to her taking 4? or would she be better off dropping the Theatre and just continuing to enjoy Drama as an extra curricular?

If she is confident that she can get the grades she needs in the three academic subjects while also doing Theatre Studies, I'd say go ahead and take four. If she thinks the amount of work involved in TS would adversely affect the other three, she should drop it. As an example, AAA will always look better than AABB.

Good luck to her with her applications!

Is she is thinking of dropping it before taking AS or just for A2? I think universities might wonder why she only did 3 ASs as 4 is the usual number if that is her plan, but at A2 3 is the standard number and especially as it is of no relevance to her degree subject I don't think oxbridge would care about it (and would probably exclude it from any offer they made - ie: A*AA excluding theatre studies). There may be some slight benefit in doing it if a sizeable number at her school do 4 as oxbridge do like to see someone who is right at the top of their year group in their school cohort.

DS is taking 5 AS with a view to 4 A levels. He was advised to do this to boost his chances for OX/RG. The four are Maths / Science and the 5th is a humanity.

Theatre Studies isn't just Drama though, is it - don't they actually study theatre, write essays etc? More like Eng Lit than plain Drama in the extra-curricular sense.

As she's just starting with it at AS she can see what it adds to her workload, & quietly drop it if she finds it too much

I know someone who was given that advice too Secret - they gained A A B B at A level, missing their AAA offer and think the advice was flawed.

But if at your school all the top children do do 4 and you are certain you won't be in the situation above then I think it may help.

Agree Gelatinous doing four A2s can work both ways. My DC did 4 and GS and I have just asked her what she thought. She has just completed her 2nd year at a RG university. She wasn't sure whether the extra A2 had helped her but her course had 20 applications for every place so I am sure it didn't hinder her.
Interestingly though her main comment was that she felt that if she had not done the 4th subject she would have been bored as she would have had lots of spare time.

And there's the thing - if your dc will be bored with too much spare time if they don't do the extra, then go for it. If it's going to be even a bit of a struggle then don't. (Ds did 5 and still had time to spare for OU courses, music, sport and being a teenager, but not everyone would manage it)

My DD was like your DS Gelatinous it really is amazing what they can pack into a week isn't it? Mine did 5 too but the 5th in her case was General Studies!

Maybe the OP's DD can start with 4 and then re assess at October half term. It is though important to remember that if you say on your UCAS form that you are doing 4 and then drop to 3 to make sure you notify UCAS and the universities that you have applied for.

I think what the subjects are makes quite a difference actually. Maths and sciences for someone that way inclined take a lot less time than writing essays imo, and maths + f. maths is widely acknowledged to be about one and a half times the workload of two different subjects rather than double.

gelatinous makes the very good point about whether or not your DD is at a school where a good number of students take four subjects through to A2. And the different workloads for different subjects.

My DC are at a school where Oxford and Cambridge could reasonably expect the students to manage four, but so far only DS1 has taken a fourth, simply because he liked History (his other subjects were Biology, Chemistry and Physics, for Medicine).

DD1, DD2 and DD3 each took three only - but all Humanities/ essay based subjects and that was enough. Oxford didn't appear to bat an eyelid although each DD applied for a competitive subject. In fact DD2 included Art & Design as one of her three, which many on MN would advise was a killer. But she loved it and it was time consuming so she opted to drop French. I'm sure for her that was a good decision.

I'd say keep on Theatre Studies if your DD can manage it comfortably, but don't be worried about dropping it either. The one thing the universities don't seem to like is students putting down a fourth subject on their UCAS forms in October and then dropping it when they get a place - some Oxford colleges at least stipulate that their offer is contingent on all four subjects being carried through to the final exam.

gelatinous they gained A A B B at A level, missing their AAA offer and think the advice was flawed..
Yes I thought of that, it' a worry, and spelt it out to him, but DS is determined. I don't think that many do 4 to A2 but it's a very large 6th form college. He is also desperate to be challenged, feels his comp never did that for him (he is right).
I am hoping that his first 3 months in Year 12 will clarify whether this is right for him and if necessary he can drop the 5th A2.

Having just done the schlepp around Unis (including Cambridge) the general concensus was the quality of the grades was more important than the quantity

Better to get 3 A/A*'s than 4 or 5 & one of them a B

Yes grades are important but a passion for the subject and reading around it seems to stand out too, we felt. If you are lucky enough to get an Oxbridge interview this is particularly important.

It's always a bit of gamble to know if doing more will jeopardise grades or not. The early AS modules give some clue, but it's not always easy to know in advance. Wanting to do them though is a good reason to try and re-evaluating at each stage is a good idea too.

Everyone who applied to Oxbridge at DD's completed 5AS in year 12, and either dropped at A2 to 4 or 3. Those who dropped from 5 to 4AS in year 12 did not apply. No 'scientific' enquiry done, but DD said they were self-aware enough not to waste a UCAS option. Some were also successful applying in their gap year, and they themselves said that they were not mentally ready at the start of year 13 for Oxbridge, but were obviously ready when they did. So it's hard to generalize, but doing 4 AS appears to be [apart from very rare extenuating circumstances] the least of issues for students of that intellectual ilk. There is usually a lot of feedback all through year 12 as to how they are coping with independent learning, so surprises are rare by the end of year.

genug is your DD at a particularly fearsome independent school? DS applied with 4 AS even from a very good grammar and appears not to have wasted a UCAS option: he's holding a relatively easy AAA offer for Oxford (and for his first choice college, which happens to have a particular strength in Medicine, which was why he applied). Some of his peers are taking three A2's not four but also hold offers from Oxford (no applications for Cambridge for Medicine this year).

Urban myths. Don't listen.

Also genug, I may simply be being dense, but what exactly do you mean by 'doing 4 AS appears to be.... the least of issues for students of that intellectual ilk' .

Those who dropped from 5 to 4AS in year 12 did not apply. No 'scientific' enquiry done, but DD said they were self-aware enough not to waste a UCAS option

If pursuing 4AS Levels in years 12 was their only reason for not applying then it is unfortunate that they ruled themselves out far too early. A quick look at the university websites would confirm this, though there seems to be a feeling that if you go to a school with a strong reputation, there might be some expectation that you will follow 4 A2 Levels. This is not a given though as Yellowtip's family illustrates.

No yellow that school is a comp. The 5th AS is usually a subject of interest but possibly not mainstream to their plans, or they can add say a language.

The 4th AS is down to whether they are committed to furthering their experience of the subject, not whether they can get the A or A*. The advice there is that as long as you don't opt for subjects that damage your future options, you should choose what genuinely floats your boat, and is likely to well after you leave school.

Doing 3 ASs seems to be too few for most, though I suppose if you're committed to say 20 plus hours outiside school pursuing say a sporting or musical, artistic interest, that would fill up time, and still get you to Oxbridge. There weren't any of that leaning in DD's year, but have been in the past. Either way they did not just drill down narrow, because they are told that will happen when they leave school. We all know there are examples of people who get in with 3 very good A2s, but you need to ask yourself whether you have the same markers, extenuating circumstances, as they do. IF you do, then perhaps your life is full enough with 3 A2s, or even 3ASs. In the case of the ones we knew, they dropped the 5th AS after careful support and are doing very well indeed but not at Oxbridge. None of my examples and yours will come as a surprise to the young people concerned, because they have little reason to be unaware of their own circumstances. The ony possible surprise would be if we expected admissions tutors to be so inflexible and limited to not take these into account.

Oh I meant to add that, for most but not all, the offers from Cambridge and the admissions tests were stiffer than from Oxford. The other observation is that the public school DS attended had/have at least twice as many going to Oxford than Cambridge, and they go in droves every year. For medicine, however, they tend to head for London, Imp or UCL.

I'm baffled by your comments here, Genug. As far as I can make out, it is the norm across England for Oxbridge-level students to start year 12, in schools of all types, doing 4 academic subjects, and possibly also Critical Thinking and/or General Studies. People who are very keen on and good at Maths may do five academic subjects because Maths and Further Maths don't really add up to two subjects, apparently. The great majority then drop CS and GS and also one of the academic subjects when they move into year 13.

My son has just left an academically selective independent school and the school's advice was to drop to three A2 subjects unless the student concerned was comfortably on track to get all As and A*s in all four subjects. There was no warning that if they did drop to three A2 subjects that they should forget any chance of getting into Oxford or Cambridge, and I don't think this is in fact what happened. There is nothing whatsoever to support this view anywhere on the Oxford and Cambridge websites. It would be discriminatory apart from anything else, because many young people would not be able to take more than 3 A2 subjects if their school/college doesn't allow for it in their timetabling, or if the student is still playing catch up after years of disruptive behaviour from classmates, frequent changes of teacher, underqualified teachers etc to GCSE.

genug do the 5 ASs at your DDs school include Critical Thinking or General Studies, or do you mean that they tend to take 5 mainstream ASs at this particular comp? So 7 in all? (or 6 if Critical thinking doesn't float the school's boat).

I'm not convinced that pursuing 20 or more hours of sporting or musical activity would compensate at Oxford or Cambridge interviews for an applicant's lack of ability in their chosen subject, why would it? Would the tutors care less?

And great that droves of students at your DS's indie get Oxbridge offers but why do they go to London rather than Oxford or Cambridge for Medicine? Are they rejected or do they themselves reject offers because they think Imp and UCL pip Oxford and Cambridge at the medical post?

Cambridge offers are stiffer for the moment. It doesn't mean that those going to Cambridge get better A2 results though. Just that the Oxford offerees can be more relaxed between December and June :).

Not sure what you mean either by Oxford admissins tests being easier? Cambridge tends to just ask for extra essays doesn't it? How is that harder?

Cross posted with LM. Glad you're baffled too :)

No genug, DD2 (the arty one) went to interview with nothing whatsoever flagged up as an extenuating circumstance, either in her PS or her school reference. I think the tutors simply found her interesting (in that her interviews were, on the whole, quite wide ranging). Her previous grades were also very good. Actually I think the arty bit counted for rather than against her because they asked her quite a bit about it and also because one of the tutors who took her on is clearly very arty himself.

There's a good document from Cambridge called 'Number of A-levels Studied' on this page where it states that 3 A levels is 'quite sufficient' for arts and social science courses, but for science subject and particularly where f. maths is offered 'the academic value of 4 A levels is clearer'.

genug I too was surprised by what you said - I don't think 5ASs and 4A2s is commonplace at many comprehensives locally unless you are including CT or GS.

yellow I was also a little surprised by your dc, although there is no need to do more than 3, doesn't your dc's school sit their A levels over 3 years? I'd sort of assumed that would mean they tended to take more, but clearly not!