Oxbridge again

[ucasfracas]

I know there are threads on this but difficult to trawl through them to get the information I would like.

Anyone who has or knows of DCs who got offers,

What grades GCSE did they have?

What was the offer?

What was the subject?

Did they have to sit a 'special' exam as well and how much did this affect the outcome.

Answers to any/some of these would be gratefully received.

My DC goes to a high performing non-selective comprehensive, gets a couple of pupils to Oxbridge each year.

Yellowstone - you mention 'raw intelligence' that is my only hope. Neither DC or I are relying on Drama (Kritur mentioned it first!!!)

Funnyperson 'very organised with folders' that is so not my DC! The school were doom and gloom pre GCSE and pre AS, but I think having less subjects to organise helped, she got three good As in the subjects she is doing at A2, a C in the one she dropped and a good A in the half AS she is taking forward.

DC is extroverted and very interested in a lot of things, but not cocky, in case you are wondering.

Raw intelligence has to be the crucial factor ucas, though the tutors need to see an ability and willingness to do the work: both places make heavy demands.

DD2 has made messy folders into an art form and still (literally)muddles through. There'll be a wide spectrum of talents on the folder front, so on that score, no need to despair.

If your DC were my DC I'd be fairly buoyed not just by raw intelligence but by 5A*'s and 5A's at GCSE which from her school may not be so very different from my DCs' results from theirs. I'd also take heart from good A's at AS!

Extrovert short of cocky must also be good, as well as the polymath thing.

Do watch the deadlines, not just for UCAS but for the Oxford aptitude test and for the submission of written work, I'm not sure exceptions are made.

Thanks for the encouragement. DC seems dead set on the STEP/Cambridge route at the moment, so we will see! I did think getting an early application in, did my older DC no harm, had an offer from a good university before other people had submitted their applications!

ucas, from what I've heard reams of GCSE A*s is less important for maths than for other subjects, but for Cambridge good UMS at AS level is also quite important. What they are both looking for is excellence in maths and they recognise that brilliance in other areas doesn't always follow. From what you've said your dcs grades are definitely good enough to give either Oxford or Cambridge a go and they will make offers based on performance at interview and in Oxford's case the MAT performance (MAT is taken before interview, unlike STEP) and in Cambridge's case, more detailed AS results (looking at UMS in detail - Oxford don't see any more than you reveal on your UCAS which may just be the overall AS grades.

The general consensus is it is easier to get an offer from Cambridge than Oxford for maths, but harder to meet it (as it involves STEP).

Is your ds doing the full FM A2 or is that the part AS? As long as the school don't offer full further maths A2 and your ds just chose not to take it that shouldn't matter, but it makes a difference in the offer that Cambridge are likely to make him. If his school doesn't offer support for STEP then Cambridge should invite him to an Easter residential to help prepare for it.

Thanks gelatinous

DC is doing full FM A2

Any idea how much predicted grades are looked at?

I have read this thread with and it has made me a bit :(

Back when I went to Oxford (admittedly a long time ago) offers were nothing like this. In fact I discussed the issue with a couple of dons (I was amazed they even called me for interview given my grades) and they were fairly dismissive of exam grades - they said they were looking for people with flair and 'spark' (whatever that may be) rather than ones who were just very good at sitting exams.

Looks like that has changed :(

Flair and spark is still the case, discrete, but its those who get good grades and have flair and spark- the flair and spark on its own doesn't cut it- or so I've heard. Others will be far more knowledgeable than I on the subject.

The students are rated and ranked before interview. Part of the rating includes their public exam results. They are then ranked according to entrance exam results. Then they are ranked according to interview performance- by the faculty and college as 'Oxford material' or 'not Oxford material' then someone ( I'm still not sure who) decides whether or not to give an offer. The whole process varies somewhat from college to college but is ultimately regulated by the faculty ie the university so that someone who is not Oxford material will not get an offer.

No idea how it works for Cambridge except to say there is a maths mentoring scheme there for 6th formers so perhaps your DC could ask to be mentored and that could help guide him/her through

nrich.maths.org/6754

But I am no expert and the above may be complete cobblers.

ukas I imagine (don't really know), that predicted grades are less important for oxbridge when they have the chance to interview candidates and see for themselves what they are like than they are for other universities. Also, I know in the early days of A grades, Oxford at least didn't like to attach too much importance to A predictions as they weren't sure how good schools would be at judging them, that may be changing now they are making offers based on them though (though maths is probably one of the easier subjects to predict).

Good that your ds is doing the full A2 further maths though, I think they do prefer it, but don't like to disadvantage candidates that haven't had the opportunity to do it.

discrete, how do you infer a lack of 'flair and spark' from very good exam results? It just doesn't follow.

Students in the current generation aren't cleverer than students were two or three decades ago but they aren't duller either.

Cheer up; no need to be :(

I don't infer lack of flair and spark, I just hate the idea that anyone who isn't a grade A student doesn't stand a chance.

I do believe that spending too much of their time and energy (physical and emotional) focussing on exam results is detrimental to children's overall development as individuals.

discrete children who get 10A*'s or so don't necessarily devote too much physical or emotional time and energy to achieve those grades.

Some seem well able to multi -task on the X-box, Facebook, on the sports field, with friends, at clubs etc. etc.

I'd like to say I had personal experience of them muti-tasking with virtuoso performances in the concert hall too, but I don't :(

I don't have an issue with children getting a zillion As if they can do it without having to give up too much.

I do have an issue with Oxford demanding that they do so.

Those wonderful multi-tasking superkids would still meet their offers if they were 3Bs rather than 3A*s.

And the ones who don't have the gift for effortlessly acing exams but would still do brilliantly at Oxford would do too.

Unless A levels really have become so ridiculously easy that you have to be seriously not trying to miss your As?

discrete first of all you said that you were :( because it looked to you like the system at Oxford had changed from students being selected because they had flair and spark, to students being selected on the basis of 'just' being very good at sitting exams.

Then, when a couple of people said that students still seemed to possess flair and spark but also, on the whole, (mitigating circumstances and rubbish schools excepted) they also had to show a reasonable hand of exam results, you implied that a row of A*'s was highly likely to be at the cost to the child of a stunted development.

Neither is true.

It's quite reasonable that Oxford asks for a certain basic minimum of results. Its system is still able to allow for individual circumstances where relevant to explain poor results. And it may be worth remembering that Oxford still requires rather a lot of exams to be taken - at the start of each term as well as at the end of at least the first and third years. Those who have issues with exams, however flairy and sparky, might be more comfortable somewhere else.

Nowhere is going to make 3 A*s the standard offer for a very long time, if ever. It's very rare at Cambridge and unheard of (I think) elsewhere.

Oxford standard maths offer is now AA in Maths and Further Maths and an A in something else.

Cambridge offer is generally A*AA with STEP - what they want you to get in STEP varies from college to college. However, some colleges make as many offers as the have places as they're confident they people they give offers to will make their STEP grades. Others will give about twice as many offers as places and then let STEP weed half of them out.

That bold A should read A A A.

So is someone who is on the quieter side absolutely on a hiding to nothing? Surely admissions people can't be so blinkered as to be swayed by an arm-flinging, studiously-eccentric-appearing interview performance?

gramercy if you scroll back I think you will see that admissions people will have the training to draw whatever is there from more quieter/introverted types.

In years gone by...the practice seemed to be that a pupil took the entrance/aptitude test, had an interview and then if they got an offer it was invariably two Es. The pupils from my school who entered for (in this case Oxford) were the two absolute top pupils who were dead cert to get straight As anyway (and did). However other schools put in a larger range of pupils, a boy I knew was practically professional at a certain sport, he go the two E offer and had a few problems at first (ended up changing course) he has gone on to do extremely well in life. His wife however did not enjoy her time there particularly, very studious conscientious type at school but not really that bound up in her subject when it came down to it and found the intensity a bit much. Another friend got an EE offer and actually did quite badly in her As (no pressure to do well) but absolutely loved Oxford and would love her DCs to go. She is definitely the flair and spark type!

In more recent years I can't say there is a 'type' but very high achievers do get in and some of them are intense/weird/geeky very much the academic type.

Ah, fond memories of the 2 Es offer.

I do maintain that a polished interview performance surely must impress, and certain schools know how to deliver.

Another question - is a candidate filtered out if they don't have a clean sweep of As? What if someone has 10As and a B, for example? Are they spurned in favour of a candidate with 8As and 2As?

It's difficult to join in the game if you're not quite sure of the rules.

I meant 8A*s and 2 As, by the way.

Well if they are, that is stupid! Yes I do have an axe to grind!

Ucasfracas has explained what made me :( much more clearly than I did, it seems.

I loved the 2E offers. It meant that if they decided they had liked you at interview, you had the place, and if you had a bad day and did badly at an exam it didn't matter to them.

Not all colleges do the exams every term - I only ever sat 2 sets of exams in my whole time at Oxford, and I do not believe that has changed in my college and subject.

I always hated exams, and generally did badly at them, but did very well in Oxford and got an enormous amount out of it. It makes me sad that others like me might not get the chance today.

Andbtw, yellowstone, I never said student at Oxford didn't have flair today, only that in my day they cared more about that than about exams. If someone gets a ridiculously high offer that they then don't make, like the case Lizcat described, clearly that is no longer the case.

I think what has probably changed (though I don't know how long ago you were there Discrete) is the level of competition. Oxbridge has worked hard at encouraging state school applications and so applications from the maintained sector has soared. Consequently, private schools - a not insignificant number of which were not doing a particularly good job - raised their game so there are very large numbers now of very well qualified young people. In addition, closer scrutiny of offers has meant that admissions tutors, while maintaining autonomy, need to be able to defend their offers, and rightly so really.

I'm fed up with flair and spark. Give me quiet and geeky any day.
No way should Oxford bring back a 2E offer.

bad day at work.

discrete you said in terms that you believe the dons are now looking for people who are just very good at sitting exams rather than those with flair and spark. There's not much room for interperetation there! You might not have meant it on reflection but that's nevertheless what you said.

Ask any don whether they think they have to turn away applicants who would be well suited to Oxford were there additional space. There must be a great many hard cases. Once you're at Oxford there are exams all the way so why on earth not use exams to help determine which of the many able students should get in.

The students I know up at Oxford at the moment show no particular sign of being emotionally or physically stunted by having to pass exams at the current AAA standard and I doubt they'll wizen visibly with the upping of the offer to A*AA. They certainly show no less diversity and talent than they did when the EE offer was still around. They're not an inferior or more colourless race, it beats me why some of the older generation like to make out that they are.