Support thread for anyone applying through UCAS this year

[Lorelai]

Following on from a thread in chat I thought I would start this so that we can hold each others' hands through the UCAS process with all its challenges.

Who's with me?

Same here eatyourveg

DD1 and DD2 got letters from the unis about post offer days but they were sometimes quite a bit after the actual offers came through.

The first three DC had very varied responses in terms of timings with post-offer days mrswoodentop. Some universities were noticeably warmer and more come hither than others.

Your advice has been immensely helpful throughout unitarian, including the New Scientist prompt (the last two copies are now well thumbed by his bed!). The overall BMAT percentage was good for the Oxford calculation but very uneven, so may do for Imperial less well (though the lowest score would meet last year's cut-off). I've had a good look at the Imperial website now, it looks fab - I've just always been a bit disinclined to push mine towards London, but I'm revising that fast. And is it really hugely expensive or have I got that wrong?

The Birmingham interview was good practice at the very least. He knows where he could have done better - much better in fact! There have been some nasty questions thrown out there this year and not just to him: several others at school have been up and some of the casual, non academic, questions are savage....

Can I ask if you were a medical family yourself or was your learnig curve as steep? I'm pretty aghast at the level of competition, it's brutal. I really had no idea.

I can't honestly say whether or not London is more expensive than elsewhere. The fees are the same as elsewhere for her cohort and they remain on the lower fee throughout. Some of the halls are very expensive and some are very 'reasonable'. The different rents are shown on the website so the choice is there.
In many ways it is cheaper! I know that sounds crazy but it surprises me how little she can get by on - and she's not one to stint herself. We live in a fairly remote village and local rents are inflated by tourism. The nearest village shops are expensive and a supermarket is a longish drive or a delivery fee. DD and her friends have an array of shops at the end of the road, cheap public transport, local markets, student prices for tickets etc. It seems to me that London is expensive for a visit but easier on the pocket once you live there and food-shop there.
She and her friends in hall last year did a lot of mutual cooking and that helped the budget stretch. It's the same now she's in a shared flat. It's also warmer! They haven't yet had to use their central heating.
There are students for whom money is no object but I think that is the same everywhere and there are students living on a tight budget - DD is among the latter and she seems to be managing, though she did go mad the first term....

All I know of Birmingham is anecdotal. An acquaintance has a DC who is a fourth year medic there. I gather they take in a largish number in year one, expect high wastage and give them a very hard time, working on the theory that if they make it to the third year then they will survive. I would worry if DD were in such a 'sink or swim' millieu. The buddy welfare system where DD is seems very robust.

No we are definitely not a medical family. A distant cousin is the only medic in the family and is an Oxford graduate. I did pick her father's brains as much as I could but times had changed a bit by then. DD and I found out nearly all of it the hard way, which is why I'm happy to help if I can - and happy to dispel some of those myths about entry into medicine which sometimes pop up.

Daft as it seems, Oxford was DD's second choice. I had the same reservations about London that you have and she reasoned that if she was taking BMAT she might as well go for two BMAT choices and one might as well be Oxford just for the hell of it.
I really believe that if she had received offers from both she would still have opted to be where she is - though I suspect we would have quarrelled! I was deeply impressed with the medical admissions staff at Oxford.

As for the level of competition being brutal, well yes. It's cut-throat at this stage but the cameraderie once they're there is remarkable.

The year before DD applied the school had a visit from an admissions tutor and a devastatingly handsome second year student. They stressed that there were 2500 applications per year for 250 places. The following year that med school got more than 3500 applications (that handsome student must have worked wonders!) and I would be surprised if that didn't rise and rise again with people forgetting gap years and trying to get in before the tuition fee hike. It would be the same everywhere and they quickly weed out the no-hopers.

The statistics are frightening which is why I say that if your DS hasn't had a rejection by this stage, yellowstone then he's doing well. What they are looking for now is his potential to survive the intense study and his suitability to be a doctor. Implicit within that is his ability to withstand stress, hence their curiosity about extra-curriculars.

Did everyone's DC's get the email about changes in fees. I don't suppose it affects any of the uni's ours are applying too atm but it was about bursaries having to be taken as fee waivers.

I presume this is due to lack of funding and because it will reduce the amount of loans that will end up getting written off. It's a complete shambles imo, students are applying for courses and the level of fees and help is changing after they apply. They should scrap it and start again.

Thanks again unitarian! The financial side is very reassuring indeed - we live in a similar sounding place.

What you say about Birmingham chimes entirely with something our HT said recently to me, now it makes sense. With this particular DS I wouldn't worry too much (but I would with some of my others): I think we'd just both be incredibly glad of an offer.

I find the e-mails from the Oxford medical admissions staff very helpful too, though DS has had no reason to interact with them directly.

Can you remind me when your DD got her interview invite for Imperial? I can't quite remember. Are they pretty arithmetical like Oxford too, or do they issue invitations on the basis of the whole app? I've heard about cut-off scores but know nothing else.

What are the savage casual non academic questions, yellowstone?

I'm in a grumpy mood this morning. Medicine is hard work. I get so fed up sometimes when non medics only look at the perks- ie the pay.

London is a fantastic place to learn medicine and teaching at Imperial or UCL is the best in the country. Birmingham doesn't compare. I am biased. However as a newly qualified doc I happened to work with other newly qualified docs from brm. Their level of knowledge didnt compare. In addition they spent their whole time telling me how superior brm was compared to London. They all, without exception, ended up in.......London. There is a 'London reject' atmosphere there.

Med schools with their own clear identity are best. For example , of the non London ones, Nottingham, Keele, York, Edinburgh. The drop out rate at the end of the second year is informative. A good medical school has a low drop out rate. I dont know where those rates might be found but the drop out for London is very low indeed.

Imperial ranks candidates on their bmat and then screens the ps in order of ranking and then gives out interview invites. When candidates withdraw (there being a significant overlap with oxbridge and ucl) those further down the rankings get invites. Interview invites are given between now and March so there is plenty of time. The Imperial students live in hall in Kensington (white period houses near the V and a ) in their first year and can live in Putney thereafter. When I taught them their main gripe was travel expenses. There is now a student rate oyster card which helps. They can also walk to places.

Interviews are rigorous because so many apply having been coached for the BMAT with unrealistic pressure to be a doctor not realising the level of commitment, mental resilience and and brain work needed. SOme go to interview never having looked at the GMC website. Odd, considering that the GMC is the body which licences doctors all through their working lives.

Common faults at interview are:

-thinking the panel knows the PS by heart -they dont, so put the best foot forward in replies even if the answer is on the PS
-Not giving an example of teamwork from the students daily (non medical) life. It is best to give an example from school, for example as a member of the senior team or meeting a d of e challenge, give examples which show communication between other classmates, mentoring of younger pupils, liasion with teachers, writing up team reports for the school mag , dealing with disagreements, working to a common high standard, that sort of thing. -also students commonly don't answer the dealing with stress question realistically - it is best to use something which can translate to a dgh eg chatting with friends, playing in an orchestra, singing in the choir, playing squash, running etc.
-Also the work experience description needs to show empathy for the patient, some understanding of the respect for different roles of nurses etc, understanding of the importance of communication with the patient.
-and the student needs to be aware of the gmc principles of good medical practice.

Good luck. fate and destiny will play a part. No amount of coaching will alter the basic personality, which will shine out at interview.

*funnyperson knows more than I do about Imperial's two interview tranches. All I can say is that DD's interview was in March and I guess they rank them, do the suitable students who already have their results and work on down. One of DD's friends was interviewed in late April - successfully - but that was the year when numbers of applicants first went through the roof.

The invitation came to her e-mail address so I can't remember when exactly that was.

I can ask her when the tour dates are arranged for. That will already be known because they ask for volunteer tour guides but she's on firms until the end of term and therefore is somewhat blinkered right now. The guided tour precedes the actual interview.

I'm also pretty sure that both places consider the whole application and that BMAT is the final decider, other than the interview.

One thing you should take on board about Imperial is the male/female ratio. It's about 50/50 in the med school but hugely male as a whole. This makes for very happy girls!

Very, very helpful advice from both of you which I've just shown to DS. He does tick a lot of your boxes funny but he says he didn't go back to his PS at Birmingham, he tried to use other examples instead, which were inevitably weaker. Very reassuringly his PS has in it every single thing you mention, with the exception of music (couldn't do £18 an hour for eight children at the time, so they've all missed out :(). That point about the PS was something I hadn't even thought to emphasize before the interview or ask afterwards.

There's never been an ounce of pressure on him to do Medicine, it all comes from him. That must be good.

Thanks so much for all these long posts, they take time I know, but they're all passed on to DS and are incredibly useful.

When the interview season can last through to April it's essential to remember what was written in the PS back in October. You can bet your life that the interviewers have glanced at it just before you walk in the room!
He should take a copy to read on the train, along with the map of how to get there and the invitation letter/e-mail with the instructions on. Leave nothing to chance in the practical sense.

Imperial seems quite conscious that the place is full of very focussed nerds and keen that there should be some breadth. There are lots of opportunities for music, including singing with no previous experience. Breadth is taken so seriously that all were mailed a novel and invited to meet the author. It is also has great sporting tradition.

Things that DD noted they were curious about were her dealings with young children and about her particular extra-curricular interest in which she was involved in a way that ticked all the character boxes in one fell swoop but would out her if I said anymore here.

It was formal yet had a friendly atmosphere and there is a student on the panel. If she seemed flummoxed they helped her. From what she told me, it was not about tripping candidates up but about getting each one to open up.

I have no idea what the typical offer was last year but you can be sure it will include A* Chemistry and I think this will be a universal requirement. Whatever else is going on in his life he must concentrate on that.

unitarian very useful - the only thing is that the 'focussed nerds' are not reading medicine. At Imperial they will be reading the pure sciences.
The fiction thing is about doctors needing to be real people. If I have time I will dig out the nice informal reading list of fiction suggested for medical students. You see, most people on the panel are from an age when medicine was as much an art as a science.
The final decider is not the BMAT. (The BMAT is merely used to ensure they have enough basic science and writing skills to cope with the course). It is the interview. The aim of the selection process is to select tomorrow's doctors. If, at the interview the student doesn't come across as a person who will develop into a good doctor, able to communicate clearly and with empathy, the BMAT won't cut any ice. There is research being done on selection criteria; some are looking into personality tests to select future doctors. One way to think about it is what you would want in a doctor- this is what WH Auden wanted:

Give me a doctor partridge-plump,
Short in the leg and broad in the rump,
An endomorph with gentle hands
Who'll never make absurd demands
That I abandon all my vices
Nor pull a long face in a crisis,
But with a twinkle in his eye
Will tell me that I have to die.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1763178/pdf/v088p00635.pdf

this is the book list -its rather old now but still interesting
adc.bmj.com/content/suppl/2003/06/24/88.7.635.DC1/886545ReadingList.pdf

Funnyperson Thank you. I will pass on the reading list. I tried to interest DD in The Poisonwood Bible a few months ago but she'd rather curl up with a text book. Our house is crammed with fiction and she has resisted most of it.
She is deeply interested in music though which is her saving grace and she is articulate and witty. I've always thought she would have the bedside manner of a viper but better people than I seem to think otherwise - or that is what they were looking for!

I was generalising about the focussed nerds of course. It's impossible to separate the medic friends from the other friends she talks about. There does seem to be a lot of social interaction which is another good thing about the place.

I wish I could have called on your advice two years ago.

do you think the drop out rate is changing, funnyperson, now that they can intercalc? Presumably it encourages them to stay around to the third year? The dropout rate for medicine is low anyway compared to other courses, at least according to the bbc news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/547460.stm

DD has an interview, help!

good luck!

Great news adamschic

good luck to your DD!

my favourite medical student has got the Foundation School they wanted - subject to passing their exams in January - so much celebration today. Maybe we should have a separate thread about medical schools and the issues for parents. If they do an intercalated degree there are funding issues that will presumably be worse in future as the fees are higher.

Ellis, what is a foundation school?

afaik funding (or loans) are only available for up to 4 years degree. Don't know what happens to medicine and longer courses but uni's will have to make funding available or students pay upfront for post graduate.

adamschic www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/pages/home/deaneries-foundation-schools have to dash

DS1 just got an email from UCL which said they were recommending him for an unconditional offer. Something about the offer is made through the Faculty. He filled out the questionnaire last Friday and got the email today. He is verrrrrrry pleased. Hope the formal offer through UCAS is straight forward. No interview and no compulsory open day mentioned.