Support thread for anyone applying through UCAS this year

[Lorelai]

Following on from a thread in chat I thought I would start this so that we can hold each others' hands through the UCAS process with all its challenges.

Who's with me?

kritur thanks that is interesting. Just a quick question why should having no parent who has been to university lead to a possible allocation of a flag.... can understand individual cases, but would it be a blanket allocation? If so, taking that to the extreme (yes I know it is an extreme) Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson's daughters would have priority over those children whose parents went to university e.g. my children as DH and I went to University and were the first of our families to do so.

Not got a clue to be honest! We only allocate a university priority if there are 2 flags for a candidate anyway so I doubt that Royal Family children would qualify for a 2nd one that gave them priority! I think having 2 flags before priority is decided is to stop cases like you're talking about....

Kritur - I was told the information about parents profession and whether they had been to university was only for stats and not taken into account. So I obviously can't believe anything I'm being fobbed off with. Also London post codes cover very mixed areas. There are £5m houses in the same post code as some really run down council esates. Unless they seriously look at the full post code, mistakes will occurr. As said above the 'parents not been to university' is completely off the mark. I know numerous families where neither went and they certainly don't need a leg up. In my day [old emoticon] if there was a family business to go into it was very rare to be 'allowed' to waste your time at university.

ucasfracas She wanted to do medicine and had two specific medical schools in mind at that stage, both of which required BMAT and are considered prestigious.

He sniggered at parents' evening and didn't include her on the trip for 'top students' to an access day to one of these unis but a science teacher expressed anger and put her on the list so she went anyway. Also he didn't enter her for the BMAT exam despite her stating clearly that she wanted/needed to take it. (He was ultimately responsible for this and failed to spot the omission when he 'checked' her UCAS form.)
The absolutely wonderful admissions tutor at one of these unis e-mailed DD to ask why she wasn't entered for BMAT and then went to enormous trouble to organise this for her with only hours to go before the exam. We will be forever grateful to this kind and gracious woman.

The upshot is that she passed BMAT and is at the medical school she wanted.

The reason for his animosity? Who knows. She doesn't suffer fools gladly, though I suspect it irritated him that she never once attended a compulsory Gen Studies lesson yet she got 100% on the module he taught. The students who attended the lessons did appallingly badly.

This petty minded individual then pretended to have forgotten her name at Speech Day when she was one of three who had achieved 5 A grade A levels, had had considerable success in a well-known national competition, and she had gained a place at one of the most prestigious medical schools in the world.

It is a terrific school. Many members of staff, particularly the science and maths staff, rated her very highly and encouraged her every step of the way but this man's attitude still rankles.

The moral of the story for all of you at this stage is to take nothing for granted, check everything, do your own research and don't necessarily accept what even a senior member of staff tells you about your DC's chances of success.

Best wishes to Libra's DS at his Aberdeen interview. It's almost the last hurdle!

Thanks kritur that's really useful.

funnyperson parents evening was like Piccadilly circus so I didn't get a chance to speak to the head properly. Have booked an appt for first thing Wednesday but am in two minds about it now.

I've looked at the ucas website where it advises teachers what to put in a reference and other than the scholarship and being senior squire, ds's reference has more or less everything ucas suggest albeit the way it is written is rather strange. Assuming that the admissions tutors aren't judging ds on his teacher's written communication skills, I am minded as unitarian suggests to tell ds to concentrate on the ps and ignore what school say.

Thanks one and all

piffle don't panic yet, Warwick give out maths offers to almost everyone (they say anyone predicted AAA or higher) and they seem to be giving them out in order of receipt - my guess is UCAS processed your ds's app. after 12 Oct? He should hear from Camb. fairly soonish too, and if he's still as much of a maths whizz as he used to be will get an interview and is probably a shoe-in for a place. Not sure about the others but some do wait until later to give out offers, you can't read all that much into a delay.

We are told that rejections come out a week earlier than interviews and to expect interview letters in the last 10 days of November.
For Cambridge at least that is.
He is still stunning at Maths thanks :)
He has an A at A level got a year early, did FSMQ in yr 12 with A (highest possible) got Best in School gold award in the National Maths Challenge thing. Is on target for A in further Maths and at least A's in physics and chemistry. He only needs to pull up a few minor errors and lack of attention to pull those to A* we are told...
He is teaching a stunningly clever Maths boy in yr9 advanced Maths too with the schools permission.
I know Cambridge isolate toward mathematical whizzes and so long as your Maths is near perfect then they allow leeway in other subjects a bit...

"so long as your Maths is near perfect then they allow leeway in other subjects" definitely true from what I've heard too :)

Good to hear it's all going well for him.

You might be interested in this page on TSR which shows who has maths offers from where and when they applied, but on the other hand it's probably not worth stressing over too much either - there can be lots of reasons for a delay, including universities trying to decide whether to make a lower than usual offer to a very strong candidate.

It's hard not to worry when all your friends have lots of offers and you don't though.

ds also applying for maths and also has just one offer so far (but only Warwick in common with your ds) btw.

Ellisbell thanks

Libra well done and good luck to your son.

Unitarian glad it all worked out in the end, getting in for medicine at all is very impressive. The shining star of my older DC's year didn't get an offer at all. She ended up taking a year off and got in for the next year.

I had a teacher at school who still makes me angry when I think of him...!

Kritur and Gelatinous, Maths here too, but only Bath in common with Kritur's list, not going Oxbridge route.

Whiz Maths pupil of the year (not DC!) has not had an offer from Bath yet (nor has DC), although somebody else who got in really early has, both Oxbridge so fairly early apps, so I wouldn't worry.

unitarian not booking her in is completely outrageous - how did he get to be Head of Sixth? I'm surprised that's not a sackable offence.

Just as well she had fans, though she clearly deserved them.

unitarian did you complain to the head and if that got nowhere to the governors? I'd be inclined to drop Ofsted a line if still unhappy.

I'd agreed with the check everything, we paid to see the UCAS reference and found something wrong with it.

kritur I appreciate the problems with contextual flags but I'd still like to make the point that so-called "top" schools don't necessarily support the less advantaged. Our experience is that these schools have a mix of parents and that the most advantaged get to the more prestigious universities. There is little support for the less advantaged and what there is starts too late. I'm trying to help a couple of these children and it annoys me that there is not a level playing field when applying to university. They can't afford to buy books to read, they don't have any help in finding online resources, they have to have a job. I know one's postcode is not a "deprived" area, the other probably isn't. They both live in small rented houses, both with absent fathers and mothers who didn't go to university. They probably won't qualify for summer schools/shadowing schemes because of their school's reputation and rely on hearing about what they need to do/ other opportunities from their friends or their friends' parents.

I'm in agreement with those who say that going to a top school doesn't necessarily confer advantage - the children with more articulate, involved and richer parents do better. it is possible for teachers to get a bee in their bonnet about children and - especially when it comes to heads of sixth form- easy for them to wield their power to alter a child's whole future.

So much of the school culture in this respect comes from the head who can try and instill the culture of doing the best for every child regardless of parental income. But entrenched staff, large pupil intakes and the short time frames and big workload of sixth form teachers means that the UCAS references are cobbled together a bit and miss essential stuff out.

When my DS applied to uni the school didn't mention that he had a scholarship, or that he was on the NAGTY register, or his maths golds in challenges, or his 100% in modules, or that his dad didn't go to university -they were so inundated with boys/parents telling them how amazing they were at that stage that it appears the teachers just lost interest.

At DD school however, the headmistress personally went through every reference with every girl - chalk and cheese.

Our school has good GCSE results which go down considerably if you measure by the EBAC, but A levels results aren't so great. AFAIK no-one got into vet,med or dentistry in the past few years, same for Oxbridge. One of DD's friends has applied this year and we are all routing for her. I would estimate about 20% of pupils staying onto sixth form get into the traditional uni's, that's quite a small % of kids that start the school in yr 7. Looking at the ones singled out for NAGTY (it was a big thing for them) a few have left already and some are applying for the met unis, although a few have had good offers.

It's a large mix of pupils too, a rural comp. Quite a few come from the private school and a few are from professional households. Non of our postcodes would come into deprived areas but there is alot of hidden poverty, low incomes, high house prices.

Many thanks for all the good wishes.
We went out on Friday to find a suitable interview suit and I think we have decided on one from Next.

It's not his first choice (too close to home!) but he is very realistic about how tough it is to get into anywhere for medicine. He also very much likes the department having been to several events there. Just the sheer horror of being on the same campus as his fatherand maybe bumping into him putting him off a bit! And a burning desire to go down to the bright lights of the central belt.

Exciting times ahead Libra, what a focus he has, you must be very proud :)

With ref to the school thing, when DS1 was 9 (we lived in Hants/Surrey borders back then) the school said we should consider going private as they felt he would flourish with better teacher/pupil ratios and despite being in a VERY affluent area the 2 secondary schools were very average indeed.

Then DD was diagnosed with all kinds of complicated things and we knew I'd not return to work for the foreseeable decade ahead, so we looked at moving and ended up in South Lincs (DH transferred within his employment) we found a super boys grammar where DS1 really has thrived. It is not competitive here as it can be down south for those coveted grammar places, but still an excellent school with prob 6-8 Oxbridge successful applicants each year. (Out of 40 students) So quite high IMO and the pastoral care is ace, more importantly ;)

So sometimes schools matter and you can do something about it, and other times your hands are tied and you just have to hope it works.

funnyperson but what you say about the experience that your two DC had is by definition all about the diiference in schools, not parentage.

It's shocking that a school would vary in the level of help given, according to the pushiness or wealth of a parent. I can't believe that would happen in the state sector and I'm shocked that it would happen at a top independent. Which type of school is the one you're dealing with ellis?

I'm in agreement with those who say that going to a top school doesn't necessarily confer advantage - the children with more articulate, involved and richer parents do better.

This hasn't been my experience and it's sad that it was your son's. I would question the school's claim to be a top one though.

Ellis is spot on in highlighting a fact that is difficult to discuss and I really admire her support for children who lack enough knowledge about the system.

Success in education at all levels is (almost) always "about the parents". First through valuing education, but then when it comes to more competitive applications, it's about understanding just what needs to be done. Non-graduate parents or those in less than easy circumstances have more work to do in order to realise just how much work is enough, where and how to support effectively.

There is a big emphasis on the private/state school divide but I'm a state school teacher with children in a school with a "big" name with all the advantages that brings and I still feel parental approach is the most important key, since I see those at the privileged end whose parents pay the school to do everything achieve less than they might with more input from home.(there are a fair few of those - affluent neglect is real, though sometimes it is because in their day, it was enough to send their child to a famous school and entry to the most august institutions was a natural consequence of this. They don't always seems to realise how things have changed) I also see very many comprehensive educated children, whose families are very on the ball do fabulously well in terms of entry to top institutions.

I don't see this changing much with competition like it is.

To be fair, the children ellis mentions are at a 'top' school (I'm now guessing state) and volumnia, you're referring to children who are at the less parentally advantaged end of a 'big name' independent. These children do already have considerable advantage over those at lesser schools, it's hardly the educational equivalent of a poverty trap. The children who really need help are those at the other end of the spectrum in terms of quality of school and who in addition have low levels of positive parental input.

The key thing for top universities is to get the grades in the first place and in that respect the children you and ellis discuss will be better placed than most. It's entirely appropriate that the limited places on the Sutton Trust and UNIQ schemes go to those most in need, and the school a student attends is a very equitable first filter.

It strikes me that some parental input can do as much harm as good, particularly in terms of pressure and obsession with Oxford and Cambridge or 'RG' from too early an age. Not all input in this limited field is productive.

I would also say that having a paid job is a great credit to a child and there is a prominent area on the UCAS form to fill in the details. Such a job can do more for an application than all sorts of other 'ec's'.

It is definitely 'about the parents' having or acquiring an understanding of the system at any given time. We are both graduates but the situation does change over time and, being arts graduates, we have no previous experience of entry into medicine or sciences - or of Science and Maths A-levels for that matter.

Another factor, at least where DD was concerned, is the introduction of computer generated target grades. This is pernicious, in my opinion. DD was hampered by it from term 2 of Y12 because of a poor and uncharacteristic mark in a modern language aural so this translated into a B and stuck with her throughout despite the mod. lang. teachers consistently saying she was their best student. This B was the 'excuse' for not including her in the widening-access trip to Oxford and could well have stopped her applying for medicine at all if, as we feared, it became fixed as her predicted grade and if she or we had accepted it as a true assessment of her ability.

It is glitches like this that make me keep banging on about DD's experience because I really believe that she would never have made it if we had not maintained a healthy disbelief in the official line. Above all, we did our own research. The only time I had my eye off the ball was over the BMAT exam because she had asked if she had been entered for the exam and been told that she was. I should have realised that I had not been billed for a payment but did not know one had to be made. I should have checked.

DD is also of steely character and each set back makes her more determined so I think it is true to say that that man's hostility goaded her into succeeding despite him. The kindness and encouragement from other staff was also an incentive, as was their sheer brilliance and expertise.

We the parents had to steer a rather difficult course between encouraging her throughout yet trying to prepare for possible disaster. She never had a plan B.

I did not make an official complaint because I was afraid that it would make her life even harder during crucial months. I also did not want to draw unnecessary attention to the teachers who had used initiative on her behalf, one of whom made a vital confirmatory phone call 20 mins before the BMAT deadline when senior management would not do so. He has been thanked privately. I don't know what action I might have taken had things turned out differently though.

I think my mention of affluent neglect skewed the interpretation of what I was intending to say, which is that at every level, family and their interest in and understanding of the system is key. I don't mean to comment on degrees of deprivation, just that the principle is the same, whatever a child's ability and aspirations. My interpretation of Ellis' comment is that, good school or otherwise, lack of parents who are able to support effectively will affect outcomes. My observation is that this is true to a sometimes quite staggering extent and is a factor for which schools just cannot compensate .

certainly, I was a working low paid single mother when ds1 started school in a primary with no head teacher and in special measures.

He still became a star because I did everything else I could to get him what he needed to flourish.
As my situation changed (man in white horse type scenario took me away from all that) I did more with what I had and could get.

But both my parents went to uni, first of either family. Dad studied architecture and maths, funding himself working nights. Mum went aged 40 to BA in Eng Lit.. Myself and my 2 brothers have all been too (db1 law/db2 economics/me russian and politics)
Neither of DH's parents went to uni, but he and another brother both did.

It is amazing to see the change in a generation or two

I think family expectations can be a hugh influence on a child.

Working low paid single mothers can help/encourage their children to go into higher education.