Top universities and only 3 A2s

[PaulaYatesbiggestfan]

Does anyone know if any universities are planning on changing their admissions policy in favour of four A2

DC1 did a ridiculous number of A2 s and ended up at his university of choice but not before he had wondered if he had taken on more than necessary.

With DC2 and then 3 coming to make the same choices now I am wondering whether or not they should take the 4A2 and then drop the softer choice at AS

This sounds logical - but could the wind change and some top RG places start making offers based on four where 3 just won't do??

Thus will they be disadvantaging themselves from the outset - or will three do for the foreseeable future?

DS2 stuck with the 4 A2's last year and did an extended project, but then he was applying for economics at top universities, which was extremely competitive.
DS1, 5 years ago dropped one subject after AS and applied for civil engineering at top universities, but this wasn't nearly as competitive, but that could be timing as I'm not sure about now.
Having gone through it all twice I would consider what your DC is applying for and if 4 A2's will help them to stand out and they can cope with the work then go for it.
They may say they only want 3 but if lots of other students are doing 4 then who knows how the admissions tutors will differentiate.

My worries exactly bearcat... dd is maybe thinking science based or engineering. I was thinking she could concentrate on her maths and physics with maybe chemistry and drop biol ( or 4th choice) at AS

She is quite lazy less motivated than some students and might be better when not over - faced

The following from LSE website giving subject requirements for economics courses seems to suggest they like you to do f. maths if your school offer it, but only accept it as a fourth subject. So for that course at least, if your school offers f. maths they expect 4 A2s.

"An additional qualification in Further Maths, at any level if offered, is welcomed as an indication of mathematical ability. However we are aware that not everyone has the opportunity to follow a Further Maths course and find it helpful if applicants and/or their referees can indicate whether or not the applicant's school or college offers Further Maths classes. Please note, however, that Further Maths, if taken as a full A level, is generally seen as an 'additional' or fourth subject, rather than a substitute for one of your three main subjects. Thus a combination of Maths, Further Maths and one other subjects is not seen as providing the required breadth of knowledge and skills."

Won't the number of A*s asked for go up rather than the number of A2s?

At the moment not many courses are asking for As Cambridge's standard offer is AAA and Oxford's changes to this in 2012 so there is still some leeway to ask for 2 and then eventually three A*.

University lecturer in RG here. I've not heard anyone insisting on moving to 4 A2s as standard. Not anywhere. But there are lots of RG departments contemplating whether they should move to A*AA. My sense is that your DC would be better sticking with 3 A2s and doing as well as she possibly can.

FWIW we roundly rejected moving to AAA on the grounds that As appear largely to reward the better coaching on offer at private schools. Believe me, we can see the difference between different A grade students when they get to university (every single one of our UGs got 3 As) and there are plenty of well coached private school A*s who do far less well at university than their state school peers who "only" got As. Not always the case, but frequent enough for it to be noticeable.

thank you so much for the advice which goes some way to clarifying things but also shows differences of opinion....

Snorkle talked to my daughters maths teacher today who suggested she take further maths - she is already doing a short course AS as she took her GCSE in november..

Now she is able in maths BUT as i said NOT a real grafter and should she take further maths this might be too much - BUT all the schools she is considering for A level - do offer further maths - so would she be penalised for failing to take the opportunity IYSWIM

Beanlet she is being advised to do a fast track maths A2 which scares me as she will take it in year 12....don't some universities only make their offers out of all year 13 exams??

Paula your DD should only take further maths if its actually going to be useful to her ie she wants to take a maths based subject at university.

If she already has Maths A level when she applies to university then some universities would make a two A level offer.

Be careful with fast track though as some kids don't have the maturity to do well. DD2 is in year 13 and they are all very serious about schoolwork and looking forward to university while the year 12's are still on another planet!

No. A2 is A2 is A2. If she sits it early and does well it shows her mathematical ability.

Oh - and agree that further maths is pointless unless she wants to do maths, physics or engineering.

wow. Thank you so much for those answers Webwiz and Beanlet. That has at least enabled me to accurately INFORM my daughter so that she can make her mind up.

It is difficult with her - she is really not at all focused and although not young for the year she has NO idea what she wants to do and is interested in ......nothing much!!

However, she is described as very very able by her maths head and does seem to grasp it......

again thanks for the brilliant and focused advice. i could go months debating this stuff!

DS (now U6) did 5 AS and then dropped to 4 A2 and we did wonder whether he should have ust dropped to 3 A2. He however decided to continue with the 4 and has had 3 offers from RG Unis who are only asking for 3 A2s (AAA) I suppose it does give him a bit of extra insurance in case he slips up somewhere though.

Good luck to your DD Paula

we ummed and ahhed about 4 A2s, but the advice from the school was that if you only do three, universites can only make an offer based on three. I do know of a boy (at a different school) who did 4 ASs, planning to drop one subject for A2 as he didn't enjoy it, but was then made an offer which included that subject, so he had to carry on with it.

DD1 did Maths AS and A2 in Y12, but only because she's also doing FM, and the school timetables it as Maths in y12 and FM in y13. Other schools do both ASs together and A2s together. Only thing to advise, is not to cash in the Maths at the end of Y12 in case you need to resit modules (or in DD1s case, decide with modules you want to put with Maths and which with FM).

Sorry, Midnight, but I don't understand your story. Many people do 4 subjects in Y12 and then drop one i.e. they have already dropped it by the September of Y13. The UCAS system gets underway in the Michaelmas term, with Oxbridge etc being the earliest deadline in October. So how was the subject included in his offer requirement when he had already dropped it? Or was it more a case that he realised, a bit late in the day, that this particular subject, not 4 A2, was a requirement for the course?

OP, I can't see that it can be a problem. As explained, any decision about dropping a subject will be made in Y13, which is usually the UCAS year. Universities won't change requirements half way through a student's sixthform career. After all, think how they are still dithering about what to do with A* ...

Check with the university prospectus while in year 12, we knew someone who applied to a course requiring the three A grades but decided to stick to the four subjects but because of the extra work load got two A's and two B's and was not allowed the place despite a very near miss

We advise all of our tutees to do 3 at A2. Better 3 top grades than to miss out by a grade because the student pushed on to do four. We have one student doing 4 and he now has offers, one states that he cannot get below a B in any subject and others state which subjects should be A/B

State schools rarely do four A2's as a matter of course. My eldest three children have all got places at Oxford (and at Durham, Bristol, St. Andrews, Nottingham etc.) in the past four UCAS cycles on three A2's, one 'even' included Art in those three (two are reading law and one history, so not undersubscribed courses either). I'm very much hoping the school doesn't ramp the numbers of A2's up to four for my younger children; I'm assuming they'll be much better off in the next few years with quality not quantity and I'll be advising mine against four A2's unless they're dead set on four, which I can't imagine they will be for a moment.

Yellowstone is right and there could not really be any policy change without a lot of notice or perhpas further overhaul of A levels, especially since timetabling and resourcing needs forward planning (and extra money) for schools.

I wonder if there is a grey area though. I can't find it but I remember a letter to the Times a few years ago in response to the Cambridge Head of Admissions saying that 3 A2s were enough. It was from Tim Hands, head of Magdalen College School and I think said something along the lines that he was finding boys from his school were needing to do be doing four in order to gain offers. The impression I gained was that if you are fortunate to be attending a selective, wonderfully resourced school which is more easily able to offer 4 A2s then you'd be best advised to take 4. To ask for four though, would necessarily unfairly disadvantage some state school applicants.

I don't know if this impression is correct but the points scores for entrants at Oxbridge suggests a pretty high number of A2s per candidate.

Does anyone have any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to suggest that this is an area where admissions tutors make a decision about an offer based on differences in opportunities afforded to candidates?

When I was looking a A level options with DD we were told that the brighter students only need to do 3 i.e they should get the best grades possible in the 3 subject to get in anywhere.

The students doing 4 were more likely to need UCAS points so the extra one would make a difference.

Another RG lecturer here. I have heard no rumours whatsoever of plans to start demanding 4xA2.

BUT anyone with dc hoping to go to university in the next few years needs to be aware that we know very little about what impact increased fees will have on recruitment. As the effects of the fees become clearer, there may well be changes which no-one can currently anticipate with any confidence.

The Oxford offer to my second daughter stated the offer as being three A grades but added a caveat that if a candidate had said on their UCAS form that they were taking four A2's then the offer was based on the assumption that the candidate would continue with that A2. This clearly isn't the case with all the colleges because the other two daughters had no such caveat on their offer letters. Anyhow, a word of warning to students who think they could always drop the fourth subject post offer.... Another problem with four is that plenty of universities seem to specify which subjects the top grades must be in (a real pain if they pick on the weakest!).

thanks so much capergirls yellowstone and adams chic.

However we still feel no nearer... dd is now thinking of further maths - some places dont seem to see this as a real A2 but then i suppose she could drop it at AS

i am worried that as her peers (state grammar) will all be doing four - if universities look at the cohort they will discount her if she only does 3. (do they do this - i am sure i have read some do!)

DD2 is taking Maths, Further Maths and Chemistry at A2 and has five offers. I'm not sure what you mean about it not been seen as a real A2 it just means you have a more specialised range of A levels. For Maths based courses the entrance grades are usually lower for candidates who have further maths as one of their three.

tbh yellowstones post has had me very read it twice and am still non the wiser.

ATM 4 Alevels are for the less intelligent. Nobody should be worrying about doing 4 instead of 3 at this point in time.

webwiz congratulations to your daughter and i am really impressed actually!

I have read somewhere ( only last week but cannot find it now) that some places don't view it as a 'full' A level or something like that

I would love for DD to only do three i feel it is much better for her than tossing physics and biology in the air and seeing how they land

What is your dd hoping to study webwiz?

If you look at the Russell group informed choices guide further maths is counted as a facilitating subject ie it is seen as a subject that is useful for lots of courses.

russellgroup.ac.uk/uploads/Informed-Choices-final.pdf

I haven't seen any limits on further maths usefulness but obviously if you want to do English its not quite such an essential subject!

She wants to do Maths Paula and is down to making her final uni choice at the moment.