Parent of oxbridge candidate-peersupportneeded

[funnyperson]

OK so my DD is applying to Oxford for entry in 2011 and has a 75% chance of getting rejected so I am told by the Oxford website so I reckon a new thread would be helpful for us parents who may end up with joy or grief but in any event need to keep sane enough to support our loved ones. Any tips on maximising chances of success at this stage?

Rest assured, there is plenty of anxiety in France during the prépa years . Getting into the right grande école first means getting admitted to the right prépa and then a lot of hard school work (of an intensity that English students would find hard to conceive of, quite frankly) and then competitive exams. All quite gruesome.

Ecole Normale Supérieure doesn't guarantee a good job, though it's supposedly a good academic training. If you want a good job, the engineering and business school, and ENA, are the places to go.

It would be interesting to know the actual proportion of acceptances from true comprehensive state schools into oxbridge. The few grammars near here are filled with people from independent primary or prep schools so they are not quite as "state" as their name suggests.
I know of several very bright people from comprehensives whose grades are good (several A*s at GCSE, A grades at AS) but perhaps not quite the quantity as their independent school equivalent but have achieved their grades in a very mixed ability classroom. Not one got an oxbridge interviews but have probably got far greater potential (but less preparation, coaching and confidence) than someone who has paid at some stage to be in the sixth form they are currently in.

Yes, leosdad - what we need to know are the proportion of students gaining Oxbridge places who are pure products of the state system ie have never been near a private school.

I have three sibling cousins who all went to Oxbridge as "pure products", two of whom got Firsts and further degrees and glittering prizes. But they came from immensely academic families - their four grandparents had Oxbridge Firsts - so again, even the pure product measure isn't accurate as a measure of the ability of the state system to add value.

leosdad - last year I know- my ds1 got in to cambridge last year as one of 13 who got into oxbridge from his state grammar

his grammar is old school grammar but i have to refute your allegation that state grammars are full of primary prep schooled children. This is truly not the case and three of my dcs got in to their grammar schools - all state primary children along with 95% of their peers

no oxbridge in our family either

(pops halo on ds head)

I havent been able to read through everything properly - what a lot has been said- and some on the French education about which I know nothing.

However here are some thoughts:

The metro newspaper mentioned that pupils from independent schools are 55 times more likely to receive an offer from Oxford compared to those who receive free school meals at a state school.

Therefore I think that outreach mentoring should be targetted at the poorer pupils. I suspect they are disadvantaged by having no desk, no books, no internet, no family support, no food, no stationary and no peer support amongst other issues. The public libraries these days are very variable and some have wretched literature sections.

Access to the internet has resulted in more equality of opportunity in terms of educational materials/ exam board specs/revision tips/past papers etc. Therefore it is possible for a well organised person at any school to achieve 10 A stars at GCSE. However that person has to have the organisation skills of Mrs Moneypenny, unlimited internet time and/or a good memory for what is said in class, and a bit of stamina to take the 30 or so papers and achieve consistency. Also the revision time respected by the family

A level teaching is very variable and here is where the type of teacher and probably, but not inevitably, school begins to make a real difference. Families can seriously underestimate the challenges of the A level years especially the Autumn UCAS term, especially if no one has been to university. Students need support in terms of money for the extra books (never in the library) and society talks/lectures that they need to go on. Families can easily underestimate this. Nevertheless I think there are many students who have a very real passion for their subject and an insatiable curiosity.

I think the Oxford interview process - particularly the second college interview policy/ pooling criteria is coming across as rather variable in some subjects, and could possibly do with an overhaul. It also seems to me that interviews are possibly not allowing for the quieter pupil or the pupil who has an interest which does not co-incide with the interviewer. This might be a state or a private school pupil or an ethnic minority pupil.
For example Ponders mentioned that her DS had a 'flat' and unchallenging interview. My son had a similar experience. I have heard of lots going for the humanities who had a similar experience. This is understandable as it must be tiring to interview so many and hard to interview the quiet ones and in any case tutors are looking for those who are easy to teach. Nevertheless I think it important to give all a variety and breadth of questions, especially in the humanities, to enable the able to shine.

A chance of 1 in 10 is not serious competition. To get a good post grad job as a medic in this country is over 100 to 1, worse odds for banking, even ordinary posts in Waitrose are worse odds. Bristol psychology odds are 80 to 1.

So really anyone who can't be bothered to prepare properly for at least a few months for a one in ten place doesn't deserve to get in.

The problem is to distinguish between those who cannot be bothered and those who do not have the resources.

funny, lovely summary in the main, but on your last point, whihc picked up one of mine - those 100 applicants are all absolutely glittering, with 9-10 A*s at GCSE, brilliant references, and many will be the best their school has ever had... probably not so much at Waitrose, though who knows? :) Hence the reliance on interviewing. I agree there's an element of over-reliance, but perhaps somebody could suggest a viable alternatie that would deal more justly with applicants from comps, standard or basic?

A long time ago we used an entrance exam - before my time - but people felt strongly that it gave a huge edge to applicants from independent schools. And frankly, if we got them to fight fencing bouts or do card tricks for a place the indy schools would all be coaching them night and day.

What we need is a fair test of intrinsic merit that will help us choose people capable of managing the degree course (which is incredibly demanding compared with most) and then an outreach programme in which private tutors prepare candidates from the state sector for that test, analogous to the excellent work already done by the Sutton Trust - Betelguese, there's your guy, Peter Lampl - but on a much wider scale.

We probably also need to put in place some general outreach to the state sector. Every year six or seven private schools invite me to give a talk; no state schools do (and I'd waive the customary honorarium gladly if they did...). Many colleges now have a Schools Liaison Officer, but it's an administrative post, and it's only minimally helpful in drumming up admissions - honestly, it's often little more than window-dressing.

So if you are a teacher in a comp, message me and ASK me to give a talk. ASK me to come and visit. I'll do it for free. If I can't do it myself I'll send someone else. Or ASK me to correspond with your ds or dd, as a guy from Arkansas did this year - but nobody from the UK even asked, for heaven's sake. What we lack here is a sense of entitlement, because, as someone said on this thread, in comps geek and freak are seen as too close for comfort.

My last word as the mince pies are calling me...but I mean it about the messaging. Oh, and Bonsoir, how heavy is the unimaginable prepa workload? Is it more than 60 hours per week? Curious, because my 16-year-old is doing that...

sieglinde - yes, a lot more than 60 hours a week. Basically the prépa years means 6 and a half day weeks - you can take Sunday morning off to do some sport. If your child were living at home, you would do all its washing/ironing/catering/cleaning and wait on it hand and foot. Residential (boarding) prépas are another option...

I haven't read the whole thread and I don't have a dc applying to Oxbridge but I can tell you what someone from Balliol told me about 22 years ago. He was interviewing with 2 others, one the admissions tutor.

He said that the big thing was to find, or not miss, the fantastically able who might get firsts/go on to fantastic things. There is a bit more to it than that, but number one priority: Looking for the cream of the cream. The admissions tutor is thinking the same, but in a less subject-based way. Eg, will he/she get a blue?

The next priority is to identify those who should never have applied in the first place. The ones who the school should not have put up for Oxb. These included students who have no interests outside schoolwork. If they have no accomplishments outside schoolwork it implies they are not bright enough to do the work in a reasonable time, and would definitely struggle at Ox.

The third and last job is to sift throught all the rest. The interviewers are faced with hundreds of exceptionally well accomplished straight a students. All of whom would thrive at OX. All of your children are probably in this category. He said that given they are going to have to engage with whoever is chosen for 3 or 4 years, they chose the ones they think will be most pleasant to be around.

betelgueuse - the workload is not nearly as heavy once your in as during prépa, apparently. But it depends a bit on the sort of grande école. What was your son wanting - engineering? business? DP can help big time with business school.

betelguese - remind me what subject your DS is studying now?

JustinCasey, your advice is a bit misleading and out of date. Nobody gives an f about blues anymore. And I am the admissions tutor in the sense that it's all the subject tutor's call,and I am the subject tutor..Nobody else sits in.

Nobody, but nobody cares about rowing or tiddlywinks etc. What some of them care about is the Norrington Table. Not me. Nor do I care about pleasantness; I've often chosen people I don't like at all. I care about the monomania for the subject and the ability to grasp it at a high level.

1.mushroom spring onion tarragon and feta parcels in filo pastry with tomato salsa
2.hyderabadi aubergines, ladies fingers, aloo gobhi, chickpeas in tamarind, slow cooked lentils and spinach, matar paneer, yoghurt, naan, papadum

1. plum tomato, black grape, rocket and cucumber salad with a light lemon and black pepper dressing
2. hot apple, clove and cinnamon compote with cream
3. christmas pudding with baked orange slices
4. biscuits and cheese
5. coffee
6. excellent conversation with family and friends min 20 years standing.

Happy Christmas everyone!!!!

Happy Christmas to everyone.

RRocks

blimey to funnyp's menu (sounds divine, but a lot of work!) roast beef rib, roast pork loin & lots of trimmings here, & cooked by DH, not me (DS2 contributes stuffing - baked in a tray, obv, as there is no orifice to actually stuff it in )

sieglinde, thanks for that rebuttal of JustinCasey's 22-year-old explanation (I was about to hmmph & hoist my bosoms at the implied slur!)

Merry Christmas to all - hope you have a pleasant & peaceful day tomorrow