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Guest post: "We must ask our doctors: 'is this treatment necessary?'"

92 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 15/05/2015 16:48

The other day, a colleague told me the following all too common story. A few weeks ago a 90 year-old woman was admitted to a local hospital with multiple problems. Not surprising perhaps for someone who has lived so long. One of these problems (though not the reason she was admitted) was having high levels of cholesterol, which as most people know, can lead to heart disease.

The guidelines, which we doctors are supposed to take into account at all times, say that one way to alleviate this problem is to prescribe statins. We know too that many people who are prescribed statins can experience an upset stomach or headache or feel sick for the first few weeks. That elderly lady died two weeks after the prescription from an unrelated disease, which was almost certainly going to kill her anyway. What really upset my colleague was that the last two weeks of her life were spent suffering from the side-effects of the statins, which the doctor had prescribed in absolute good faith and in absolute accordance with the training and the guidelines set out by the body that advises doctors on which intervention to make.

This story neatly illustrates the challenge we face in medicine every day: medicine, for all its high-tech advances in the last few decades, is not and will never be an exact science. No patient is ever the same, no symptom is ever identical and few treatments can ever be called perfect or entirely without risk. Most of all, medicine should be about people, and making decisions with them that are best for them. This is why my organisation, The Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, has launched an initiative called 'Choosing Wisely', which is about three things.

Firstly, we want doctors to understand that a pill, a test, or surgery – which by definition can be risky – may not always be the best solution for the patient. In my own field of psychiatry, we've long known that an episode of mild depression should be treated, in the first instance at least, with a prescription of some form of exercise the patient can do, often in conjunction with talking therapies. The problem is, most GPs aren't trained in psychiatry. How are they to define 'mild'? We know that anti-depressants aren't without risk, yet they continue to be doled out fairly easily, sometimes long after the episode of depression has passed, and studies reveal huge regional variations in the amounts of anti-depressants that are prescribed.

The second point is about patient expectation. Those people who are in and out of a doctor's surgery or their local A&E, convinced they have this or that illness and demanding a whole series of tests for them or their children, are not a myth. Our job is to manage their expectations or those of their parents. Of course we should commission the tests if in the clinician's view they are appropriate, but what we shouldn't be doing is ordering them just to put the patient's or parents' mind at rest. No healthcare system in the world has unlimited resources; our job is to be good stewards of the resources we have. Patients need to be more aware of the fact that one person having a test or treatment may remove the opportunity for other more pressing cases where the need may be greater or more genuine.

Finally, Choosing Wisely is about the doctor and patient having an open conversation together about what the risks and benefits are. It's about enfranchising patients and encouraging them to ask their doctor if this treatment or test really is necessary for them or their children. It may be that when they are fully informed they still want to go ahead. That's fine - we certainly don't want to ration treatments. But it may be that once they have all the information, they want a different option.

On this point there is some remarkable evidence: a recent study conducted into the use of stents, a common procedure used to widen narrowed or blocked arteries in the heart, showed that when patients were given basic information about the procedure, 69% were happy to have it carried out. But when patients were given full information about the likely impact and the extent to which a stent can remedy ongoing problems and extend life, just 46% of patients opted to go for the treatment.

Choosing Wisely will, I hope, help us to reach decisions together. Rational decisions based not on what we can do for the patient, but instead on what's best for the patient. And that's a decision we need to start taking together.

OP posts:
justabigdisco · 15/05/2015 22:09

Pacific, I did wonder whether you were Resilient. I love reading and admire your posts. Thanks

PacificDogwood · 15/05/2015 22:12

Oh good grief, no, I am not ResilientGP. I hope I am resilient (small r) though.

justabigdisco · 15/05/2015 22:17

Resilient is a group, not just one GP. If you aren't a member then you should be! If you're on Facebook then PM me and I'll invite you!

DuelingFanjo · 15/05/2015 22:19

this

MollyAir · 15/05/2015 23:50

This is a good response to the Resilient group:

margaretmccartney.com/2015/03/27/fair-use-dont-blame-patients/

MollyAir · 15/05/2015 23:52

It really bugs me that the Resilient GPs seem to hate patients so much. Sad Surely they should get out if they hate their "customers" to that extent. Plenty of other jobs they could do.

Springtimemama · 16/05/2015 00:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MollyAir · 16/05/2015 00:25

The truth is: not everybody has had such an expensive education as doctors have had.

Mocking the poorly educated is snobbish in the extreme. Bullingdon Club eat your heart out - even Boris and Dave aren't that mean.

senrensareta · 16/05/2015 00:35

I don't think GPs hate patients but there is a certain amount of frustration, quite reasonable in my opinion.

I am not a GP but work in the NHS and spend my days taking abuse for refusing to allow prescriptions for baby milks, nappy creams, Colief, Ensure, Complan, Bio-Oil, glucosamine, shampoos, mouthwash, simple painkillers and God knows what else, all trivial, all of which could be easily bought yet, all of which patients expect because they don't pay for prescriptions and expect something for nothing

saintlyjimjams · 16/05/2015 05:34

I agree about statins tbh - but GP's are meant to demonstrate they are 'good' doctors (to the Govt) by prescribing statins - stop the govt monitoring that sort of thing, allow GP's to use their medical school training & things might change a bit.

I certainly question most treatments (now) & have found doctors willing to engage in the 'do we really need this?' question. In fact one of my first phone calls on Monday will be to a hospital dept to check what they think they're doing as it's not what I thought my son was being referred to (& my initial response was 'you're having a laugh')

As others have said it's about communication.

saintlyjimjams · 16/05/2015 05:41

Oh I like that Margaret McCartney piece.

Also raises another point -if you phone the much advertised 111 service you don't actually get to have a conversation as such with someone medical - you're locked into a computer system which will often send you to the doctor/A&E completely unnecessarily. I found our old OOH system which started with a phone discussion with a doctor - free to make his or her own choices about what to recommend (which the 111 people aren't - they have to recommend what the computer tells them to after they've ticked the boxes describing your symptoms) much more useful that ringing 111.

aliciagardner · 16/05/2015 06:44

Very much agree with springtimemama's post at the top of page 2. And also that we need to look far less to tick box and allow more clinical discretion. I guess that I'm stating the obvious to say that this all needs to be within the bounds of NHS budgeting! I wonder whether we may eventually move towards the Australian health system. If the NHS is unsustainable in current form (which it is, I think) then from my limited knowledge, an Australian style healthcare system seems next most likely option.

Solasum · 16/05/2015 07:52

As someone who has witnessed two elderly relatives undergoing 'life-prolonging' surgery, which proved fatal to one and near fatal to the other, I have to say I agree with the sentiment of this, particularly in geriatric medicine. In both instances, the provision of suitable pain relief and sensitive care would have led to a far better outcome. Everyone has to die of something, and I'm afraid that where resources are limited, Something has to give.

PacificDogwood · 16/05/2015 08:10

My reading of the ReslientGP list was not that GPs 'hate patients' - they hate the pressure they are under which makes it impossible to look after the demand appropriately.
I am a mother of 4 and I get the same feeling of being torn in impossibly many directions when ALL my children demand my attention at the same time - nobody is in the 'wrong', but I cannot be everything to everybody at the same time.

I love my job and I most certainly don't hate any of my patients (heck, I AM a patient myself), but I think the government and media have done a very good job of painting the whole profession as incompetent, uncaring, money-grabbing and self-serving, when we are not waving, but drowning.

To take my above metaphor as a torn mother further, as a dr I feel like the torn mother while my husband yells at me that I am not doing a good enough job - it is simply impossible to treat a complex problem/situation (the most complicated ones are rarely only medical, but have huge social add-ons) and not despair at the verrucca that required 4 urgent appointments last week (not kidding).

I wish politicians were honest (ha! naive, I know) to stand up and say 'There are limited resources, not everybody is going to get what they want or even what they need, we are all in this together (because we are - I am middle-aged, I am very likely to need the health service more going forward than I already needed it) and it is not going to get better'. Because is won't.

Something has to give - I could not agree more.
Sad

Springtimemama · 16/05/2015 08:10

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Springtimemama · 16/05/2015 08:13

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PacificDogwood · 16/05/2015 08:22

And yes, the Margaret McCartney piece is v good.

Re anxiety: I get very anxious about anxiety as it is so wide-spread. We live in a fearful society - every toddler who bumps their head must be seen immediately as their are much fewer life skills to know what to look out for and less trust in oneself (worried mothers phoning the surgery one their way to nursery to collect their child - of course we'll see that child, but I worry that she does not have the confidence to see her child first and then decide whether they need to see a dr), real fear about serious illness lurking around every corner (yes, meningitis is a hideous disease and every parent needs to look out for it, but the toddler tearing around my room with a mild temperature does not currently have meningitis. And I cannot predict whether the seemingly mild viral illness they seem to have will develop in to something more serious scarily quickly. 999 is more suitable for a child who looks like they might have meningitis - v ill). So much ill health caused by relationship problems, social and financial disasters, loneliness and fear - it is very hard to not feel overwhelmed by the sheer volume of demand. I have 40 to 50 patient contacts every day, ranging from the mundane to the tragic, and 10 minutes for each of them.
Biscuit

Anyhow, I feel I am monopolising the thread.
I am actually one of the lucky Scottish GPs where the NHS is not (yet) quite as broken as it seems to be South of the border.
This is not about me, it's about a much bigger picture and as Margaret McCartney said drs are not the enemy. This only works in partnership. And there are many more drs who feel like I do.
Sorry for the thread derail.

The OP is not about reducing treatment, but about tailoring treatment appropriately. For every smoking 45 year old with hugely high cholesterol who does not take a statin 'because he does not like tablets' but would more likely benefit from it (although that's a how other question - google 'numbers needed to treat statins') there are probably a number of very elderly people who are being given them and are not benefitting or even being harmed.
It's being allowed to think again, rather than tick boxes.

PacificDogwood · 16/05/2015 08:30

Springtime, IMO it's not about money. Drs who want to make loadsamoney don't go in to GP; they become, I dunno, plastic surgeons and work privately - big market there Hmm

It's one of the many sticks that have been used to hit GPs over the head with: that famous headline of annual incomes of £250.000. Sigh.
I don't make a fifth of that and my 'part-time' job amounts to approx 50hrs/week. I am a partner in a business, so time is also spent on managing that. It is not about money.

How many of you would phone your solicitor, expect to be seen immediately, ask them something inappropriate (say, ask for health advice Wink), they do it, don't charge you for it and are not expected to feel disgruntled by it?
For instance, housing has no accommodation to give away, the waiting list is atrocious (if you are a lone male here, you wait approx 3 years). What's the solution? 'Get a letter from your dr' - it's NOT a solution, it does not add 'points', it is purely a holding pattern, gives people something to do and takes pressure off the beleaguered housing officer. It is very hard to say 'No' to there desperate requests, but I am increasingly saying no. There are formal pathways for medical reports to be requested and they should be followed.

"My college bursary will not be paid unless I have a doctor's note that I was off with a sore throat last week" - she had quite appropriately not been near a dr for her sore throat and was now better. So, singly mum, trying to better her lot, losing this bursary would be disaster for her, I do a frigging letter stating "Ms X tells me she was unable to attend uni last week due to a sore throat'. She keeps her bursary. Fecking annoying, buck passing, common sense out of the window madness.

Ok.
Now I'm ranting.
I think I need breakfast Grin

Springtimemama · 16/05/2015 08:40

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotCitrus · 16/05/2015 08:43

Springmama - we're already not getting applicants. My GP has lost 2 partners in the last few years (were seven, only replaced two of four who left/retired), and should have another five GPs but isn't getting applicants for the posts. GPs don't want to work in a deprived part of London. The individual staff and practice manager are all lovely, but they can't magic up appts with non-existent GPs or nurses!

Medics need time to assess patients' lives as a whole. I've been written down as non-compliant for not doing certain exercises or refusing certain consultations - but when I explain how many different sets of physio I'm 'supposed' to do a day, and how many consultants I've been referred to (easily 3 hours exercise and could have an appt every week), they realise I'm making sensible choices. Less articulate patients will just collapse under the stress of dealing with different healthcare issues.

I think payment at point of use should be avoided, so we need more taxes and perhaps more efforts to prove entitlement to services so people get used to carrying their NHS card.

PacificDogwood · 16/05/2015 08:45

18 training posts in this health board has received 4 applicants.

Middle-aged, experienced GPs retiring because they are disillusioned and the recent pension changes meant that working longer would not contribute to their pension. As there is no 'joy' in it, understandably they leave.

No, it's not the patients' fault - it is far wider reaching.

Springtimemama · 16/05/2015 08:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PacificDogwood · 16/05/2015 08:52

There IS a shortage of GP partners, but worse, there is a shortage of GP - salaried, locums or otherwise.
We have just reduced our own holiday entitlement because we cannot cover the surgery for annual leave in school holidays.

PacificDogwood · 16/05/2015 08:53

But of course, lets not fret, Shiny Dave and his consorts are going to provide 5.000 extra GPs - all is well.

MollyAir · 16/05/2015 09:08

it would be much better for everyone concerned if all the GPs who despise patients - particularly working class, less articulate, badly educated patients - would resign and go into plastic surgery, where presumably they would be happy with the vain, wealthy clients from backgrounds the same as their own.

There can be no change within the "profession" while the barricades are so staunchly manned by the defensive.

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