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Guest post: Kirsty Wark on misogyny - are things getting worse for girls?

299 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 08/05/2014 12:50

I am an optimist. I was optimistic in the 1970s that life was getting better for women. The Equal Pay Act in 1970 was followed five years later by the Sex Discrimination Act and I thought, naively, that the legislation would trigger the death of sexism, the end of sexual harassment and the bullying of women at work, controlling relationships, and domestic violence. In short, a revolution. And by the time that I had my children in at the beginning of the 90s I still had that optimism. Now they're in their early 20s, I'm not so sure.

Of course much has improved for women and girls - our lives are probably unrecognisable to our grandparents. There is no job we cannot do, no heights we cannot scale. And girls are doing brilliantly in the classroom. So why in the last few years does there seem to have been a tidal wave of openly hostile and aggressive behaviour towards women, from the online response to Professor Mary Beard's participation on Question Time last January, to young women at school being 'slut shamed' and touched up; from prostitutes being beaten up and killed on a video game, to some of our best known comedians thinking rape jokes are a great laugh? Last year it was even possible to buy a t-shirt proclaiming 'I'm feeling rapey.' Why has the conversation around women become so coarse? And – crucially – what does it mean for the next generation?

For a new BBC2 documentary – Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the Sexes - I set out to investigate. When looking at several examples of sexism and misogyny that had provoked outrage, in order to gauge their offensiveness, what was striking was that the 'pain threshold' was so different, among both men and women. And particularly with young people.

Take the case of Stirling University men's hockey team singing a new, significantly more explicit, version of an old drinking song on a busy public bus at around nine o'clock at night. A video had been taken on a phone and posted on the internet. To give you flavour:

A lady came into the store one day asking for an orgasm. An orgasm she wanted – who gives a f* what she got…

A lady came into the store one day asking for a lady train. A lady train she wanted – a miscarriage she got…

When we spoke to students at Stirling University about it, one, Katie said "I think it's okay because obviously I know some of the guys and I know that they are not sexist", whereas another, Miriam, told me "this song isn't a one off, terrible song that a group of bad individuals have sung - this is a common example of every day occurrences that really highlight an underlying misogyny."

Offended or not, there was a common feeling that this sort of behaviour was "normal". And, as some students pointed out, if Family Guy, Jimmy Carr and Frankie Boyle can tell rape jokes, and the like, why shouldn't they? This split over whether humour renders misogyny harmless, or just acts as a cover for it, came up with schoolgirls that I spoke to too. Yaz, seventeen, told me she “would hear at least three [rape jokes] every day just walking down the corridors”.

Humour, of course, has always played an important role in breaking taboos. But with a resurgence of retro-sexist jokes and banter, I wanted to know whether it could have an impact. And when we probed the research the results were striking – suggesting (in the experiments at least) that when sexist men heard sexist jokes it reinforced their attitudes, and in the immediate aftermath they were more likely to act in a sexist way.

But it's not just sexist jokes that young people are facing. The internet, a thing of marvels in many ways, has seen an explosion in attacks on women and is the gateway to all kinds of content. It's also where the next generation are growing up. So where are the trusted guides to navigate this space? We spoke to teenage boys in a sex education class, and some of them admitted to watching porn. No surprise there, but the girls in the class worried that this would give the boys a pretty skewed view of healthy teenage sexual relationships – thinking they should be the "focus" of sex, and more "dominant". Some schoolgirls we spoke to even talked about being routinely groped. All attitudes feminists of the 70s campaigned to leave behind.

But I don't think this is simply about girls being victims – I think boys are under just as much pressure, and are just as confused about what their role is, particularly (and ironically) in the face of female success. Georgia, who’s fifteen and who co-founded the Campaign 4 Consent which lobbies for consent to be taught as part of the national curriculum, said something that really struck me – "it's hard to educate people about this because we're teenagers ourselves and it sounds preachy if we tell boys what they should be thinking - what we really need are role models, like adults and teachers who they admire, to come in and say why this is wrong. We need an entire attitude change and not just one person."

I'd really love parents and teenagers to watch the film together tonight, and have a genuine discussion about pop videos, rape jokes, computer games and porn… and talk about where they want to draw the line.

OP posts:
grimbletart · 09/05/2014 15:17

As an old gimmer who spent most of her schooldays in the 1950s and entered the job market in the early 60s life was worse for girls in some respects e.g. of having to kick over the traces and upset a lot of people to do the job you wanted if it was one that was deemed unsuited for "young ladies".

However, in one respect it was much better. Girls did not, in the main, give a flying whotsit what boys thought about them i.e. our attitude, at least in my school from the girls was, "if he likes me ok, if he criticises me or tries to pressure me into something I don't want to do then he just fuck off". We didn't see ourselves as feeling we had to comply - an attitude that probably came from having to fight day in day out to be taken seriously and not just as potential breeding fodder in a frilly apron.

I do believe that not only the internet and lads' mag attitudes but also girls and women's mags celeb and body obsession is really feeding what is going on - setting up impossible and unobtainable ideals and forever harking on about being appealing to men. And boys and men play into that attitude too in that it encourages them to think they are the centre of some bloody universe where girls exist as pale moons revolving around their powerful sun.

Not to derail the thread but this story on BBC sport today www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/get-inspired/27326791 shows a girl with the right attitude - not that every girl should be weightlifter, although that has its upsides dealing with aggravating teenage boys Grin - but her views i.e.

"It doesn't matter what people think about you," says Tiler, fresh from winning a gold and two silver medals at the European Youth Championships in Poland. "If you enjoy something in life, just do it."

That was the attitude we had at school and our careers as we fought for equal rights, the equal pay act etc. and it carried over in our attitude to men. Very much "we're here, we're human too, we deserve to be treated as equal and if you don't like it sunshine, shove over".

Where has that attitude among some girls gone?

Please don't see this as victim blaming. It's not. Obviously the priority is to change male attitudes. But there is nothing like water off a duck's back for entitled males to realise that they are wasting their time being sexist and misogynist as, frankly, we couldn't give a damn about those sorts of men. They can stay girlfriendless and wifeless. Who wants them?

rabbitrisen · 09/05/2014 15:46

I do believe that not only the internet and lads' mag attitudes but also girls and women's mags celeb and body obsession is really feeding what is going on - setting up impossible and unobtainable ideal

I think that you can add the beauty industry into that too.

rabbitrisen · 09/05/2014 15:47

And the advertisers.

I too am totally of the, leave them girlfriendless and wifeless group.

slug · 09/05/2014 16:42

I used to teach 6th formers. I have a fine line in raised eyebrow and slightly patronising put down.

AveryJessup · 09/05/2014 16:54

Kirsty Wark made a good point when she noted that this 'new' misogyny is perhaps a reaction to the rise of women in society and the fact that women are fighting more to work in traditionally male-dominated roles, to be visible and to be taken seriously. That's fits my experiences. Some men feel threatened by the encroach of women, even in the most mild way, into 'their' areas and aren't comfortable in mixed-gender environments.

I read a study some time ago that showed people's perceptions of gender equality. Generally, men thought that women had achieved equality when they made up 30% of a work group. When it went to 50-50 they felt that women were too dominant. Which is hilarious because 50-50 is what society really is.

This sense of being taken over or diminished by the rise of women is at the root of all this MRA paranoia and fear, I think. It is not socially acceptable anymore - thank Christ - for men to be openly sexist and derogatory in the workplace a la Mad Men and so this sentiment is driven underground and surfaces on the internet, mostly anonymously. Hence women on any public forum being subjected to abuse and harassment in order to silence them.

The rape threats always puzzle me to be honest. I don't know why these male trolls use that threat so much e.g. a pp whose relative taught at a school and overheard a 14-year old say to a girl 'shut up or I'll rape you'.

Men can be and are raped too after all. Why don't these girls just throw it back at them? Rape threats are not to be encouraged of course (!!) but I do find it odd in popular culture that jokes about women being raped are 10 a penny while the mere mention of men being raped is still taboo. Maybe MN-ers need to break that taboo...

Oi, AGoodDad - I bet you're secretly gagging for it!! That's why you're hanging around a women's internet site, just begging us to teach you a lesson. Why don't a gang of ten of us MN-ers come round to your place and give you a good seeing to with a dildo, tear your ass in two... phwoar... ooh you'd love that. We'd soon show you what misandry really looks like...phwoar... etc etc.

Shudder. I feel slightly sick now...

bunchoffives · 09/05/2014 17:51

Avery Grin

I thought Germaine's frank acknowledgement that the culture of sexism hasn't changed that much refreshing.

While there is equality of pay and opportunities enshrined in law, cultural sexism lags very much behind.

But culture in this instance stems from vested corporate interests in media, music, tv, films etc, where sexism is really about cheap labour and high sales and profit.

Why is misogyny still acceptable when racism or homophobia is not?

Would the Thicke video have been sold and aired if it had been all black naked women with a white man?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/05/2014 17:59

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bunchoffives · 09/05/2014 18:17

Yes that's a better hypothesis. Wink

NeilDiamondRocks · 09/05/2014 18:31

It was just good to see this documentary aired on a mainstream channel....that alone gives me hope that maybe we are turning a corner and addressing this issue and that more women (and men) are seeing misogyny in everyday life. Interesting that the women interviewed came across as intelligent, thoughtful and insightful, whereas two of the men (Liddle and the Loaded guy) came across as rather silly mansplainers.

It was depressing as a whole, but also so uplifting to see so many eloquent and determined young women who are prepared to work hard to make changes.

vesuvia · 09/05/2014 18:50

Thanks to Kirsty Wark and her team for making this programme.

Some of the points from the programme that particularly caught my attention and my thoughts on them:

Online misogyny does not need anonymity. There are plenty of examples, e.g. on Facebook, where the misogynist's real name and work place can be easily seen. Online misogyny occurs because the misogynists and sexists gain encouragement and re-enforcement of their views and behaviour, in an environment where there are inadequate sanctions against misogynists.

The Steubenville rape case was a very low point in American history (but sadly it could also happen in many other societies). I hope for the day when such behaviour would be impossible.

According to many comedians, rape jokes are fair game because no subject should be off-limits to comedians. Can anyone explain to me, why do any comedians and their fans find rape jokes funny or even acceptable? All the rape jokes I've heard only minimise, excuse and normalise the behaviour of rapists and rape apologists. If rape is just another joke category, why is it that the vast majority of rape jokes are about the rape of women and girls and not about the rape of men and boys? I'm not suggesting that there should be any jokes about the rape of men or boys, but why is society not awash with them, if nothing is supposedly off limits in comedy?

It was interesting to learn that studies have found that sexist jokes make sexist men more sexist because it socially reinforces and validates their sexist behaviour.

Rod Liddle says that women should just "man up" because men get abuse online too. He and his fellow men are almost always abused because of their opinions. Women are abused, very often initially with sexual insults or threats, just because they are women, irrespective of their opinion. Then, if the reader doesn't like the woman's opinion, that will also be attacked. If a woman receives rape or death threats from misogynists online, and she does "man up", her actions are not going to stop the online misogynists repeating the abuse on the next woman. How and why should a woman "man up" to deal with something that men don't have to deal with?

A cook in a TV cookery show was described as a whore, and a gymnast in a sports event was described as a slag and a slut. Why? Because misogynists can get away with it?

I admire the young people who organised Campaign4Consent asking the UK Government for better relationship and sex education in schools.

FairPhyllis · 09/05/2014 19:20

I thought it was a very good programme - congratulations to everyone involved in making it.

I think as feminists what we urgently need is to find a way of countering the post-modern "oh it's ironic humour" BS the programme identified. We've got to the point now that whenever I hear someone use the word 'banter', what they're almost invariably describing is actually some form of bullying insidiously wrapped up in "humour," whether that's sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 19:22

Well said, thanks to Kirsty and her team. Thanks

I think the anonymity issue is interesting. I think it's as much feeling you're outside the norms of written culture and spoken culture that does it. I mean, we're getting more clued up but it's very recently that laws on what you can and can't say on the net became widely known and it must have been strange for lawyers working out what count as libel or slander, or abuse. I think in a context like that (as a big generalization) people who're accustomed to feel confident speaking are going to see it as freedom to say whatever they like, whereas people who've experience of being shouted at or shouted down are going to get more of the same. That's often credited to anonymity, but I agree, it's not really that.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 19:24

YY,fair.

'Banter' for me conjure up images of immature sexist twits, I'm afraid. I think it's tied in to class privilege, too - seems to be a term that has a big association with undergraduates and/or posh stereotypes.

FairPhyllis · 09/05/2014 19:34

OTOH, use of the word 'banter' is quite useful to me in that it's like a massive siren going "Awooga! This person is likely a giant cock!"

Rod Liddell and Martin Daubney didn't come across well at all, quelle surprise.

I think the campaign about education on consent is a good one, I can't believe schools don't teach about it already.

I am getting more and more disappointed with men as a group. Why aren't the non-sexist ones standing up and loudly saying this stuff isn't OK? Why are we fighting this by ourselves?

FairPhyllis · 09/05/2014 19:40

Another thing I thought after seeing the programme: is the internet/modern culture also liberating other prejudices in the same way? Or is there something special about the way misogyny is currently snowballing?

I don't feel as though we are experiencing quite the same tidal wave of online racism/homophobia as we are of misogyny. But I may not be as attuned to racism and homophobia because they don't affect me personally - does anyone have any thoughts on this?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 19:44

I think maybe part of it is that we become desensitized to one wave of misogynistic expression, just as another one comes along.

vesuvia · 09/05/2014 20:00

Online sexism and misogyny are not just "pixels on a screen", in a similar way to how "The Bible" or "The Communist Manifesto" are not just words in a book. It's the ideas, attitudes and actions that words generate that count, not their delivery mechanism, although it is worth noting that more people will read pixels on a screen than read words in a book.

Online sexism and online misogyny have real consequences in the real word. The internet takes sexism and misogyny from the real world, adds to it and returns it to our lives.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 20:03

Absolutely agree with that, vesuvia. Especially about the number of people who read it.

I am so sick of the way both 'banter' and the internet are sold as exciting, transgressive spaces where you can just speak out and be heard. Ok, very nice, easy if you already have privilege.

I actually think this is a way in which MN is amazing, in that it shocks me when I venture elsewhere and suddenly find the place is full of men expecting twice as much attention as anyone else.

NeilDiamondRocks · 09/05/2014 20:36

Fair, I too feel disappointed by men's silence...and contemptuous, if I am honest. They HAVE to notice misogyny, yet very, very few raise their heads above the parapet and challenge it. I think they are cowardly and care more about ingratiating themselves to ignorant, sexist men than standing up for innocent women. Yes, I am VERY disappointed with men as a group. They are not as brave or as strong as they like to think they are.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 20:38

I don't think they always do notice. Sad

Yes, some men ignore, but if we had the magic bullet to make people see misogyny ... wow. That'd be huge.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/05/2014 20:46

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NeilDiamondRocks · 09/05/2014 20:46

You are probably right, LRD. My magic bullet was having my first child...I thought about the life my daughter would be living. Yet you get men with children (like that utter fool AGoodDad) who has children yet remain completely ignorant?? I dunno....it just seems to obvious to me now that I am always quite surprised other people don't see it.

NeilDiamondRocks · 09/05/2014 20:48

Yes Buffy...that's it. They don't HAVE to notice!!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 20:49

It always feels obvious to me too. But I know that I also did the whole 'ooh porn, well empowering' idiocy, so I can't judge. And I know what buffy means that there are blind spots DH has - just as there will be some I have, and I can't know what they are.

I thought this documentary was so good because it really helped show up those issues without coming across as judgemental.

FairPhyllis · 09/05/2014 20:58

It's socialisation. Women are socialised to be the ones who think about other people's needs, "notice" things, empathise, and try to fix stuff. Men generally aren't. That is why they "don't notice sexism".

But they can and should rise above their socialisation.

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