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Guest post: Kirsty Wark on misogyny - are things getting worse for girls?

299 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 08/05/2014 12:50

I am an optimist. I was optimistic in the 1970s that life was getting better for women. The Equal Pay Act in 1970 was followed five years later by the Sex Discrimination Act and I thought, naively, that the legislation would trigger the death of sexism, the end of sexual harassment and the bullying of women at work, controlling relationships, and domestic violence. In short, a revolution. And by the time that I had my children in at the beginning of the 90s I still had that optimism. Now they're in their early 20s, I'm not so sure.

Of course much has improved for women and girls - our lives are probably unrecognisable to our grandparents. There is no job we cannot do, no heights we cannot scale. And girls are doing brilliantly in the classroom. So why in the last few years does there seem to have been a tidal wave of openly hostile and aggressive behaviour towards women, from the online response to Professor Mary Beard's participation on Question Time last January, to young women at school being 'slut shamed' and touched up; from prostitutes being beaten up and killed on a video game, to some of our best known comedians thinking rape jokes are a great laugh? Last year it was even possible to buy a t-shirt proclaiming 'I'm feeling rapey.' Why has the conversation around women become so coarse? And – crucially – what does it mean for the next generation?

For a new BBC2 documentary – Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the Sexes - I set out to investigate. When looking at several examples of sexism and misogyny that had provoked outrage, in order to gauge their offensiveness, what was striking was that the 'pain threshold' was so different, among both men and women. And particularly with young people.

Take the case of Stirling University men's hockey team singing a new, significantly more explicit, version of an old drinking song on a busy public bus at around nine o'clock at night. A video had been taken on a phone and posted on the internet. To give you flavour:

A lady came into the store one day asking for an orgasm. An orgasm she wanted – who gives a f* what she got…

A lady came into the store one day asking for a lady train. A lady train she wanted – a miscarriage she got…

When we spoke to students at Stirling University about it, one, Katie said "I think it's okay because obviously I know some of the guys and I know that they are not sexist", whereas another, Miriam, told me "this song isn't a one off, terrible song that a group of bad individuals have sung - this is a common example of every day occurrences that really highlight an underlying misogyny."

Offended or not, there was a common feeling that this sort of behaviour was "normal". And, as some students pointed out, if Family Guy, Jimmy Carr and Frankie Boyle can tell rape jokes, and the like, why shouldn't they? This split over whether humour renders misogyny harmless, or just acts as a cover for it, came up with schoolgirls that I spoke to too. Yaz, seventeen, told me she “would hear at least three [rape jokes] every day just walking down the corridors”.

Humour, of course, has always played an important role in breaking taboos. But with a resurgence of retro-sexist jokes and banter, I wanted to know whether it could have an impact. And when we probed the research the results were striking – suggesting (in the experiments at least) that when sexist men heard sexist jokes it reinforced their attitudes, and in the immediate aftermath they were more likely to act in a sexist way.

But it's not just sexist jokes that young people are facing. The internet, a thing of marvels in many ways, has seen an explosion in attacks on women and is the gateway to all kinds of content. It's also where the next generation are growing up. So where are the trusted guides to navigate this space? We spoke to teenage boys in a sex education class, and some of them admitted to watching porn. No surprise there, but the girls in the class worried that this would give the boys a pretty skewed view of healthy teenage sexual relationships – thinking they should be the "focus" of sex, and more "dominant". Some schoolgirls we spoke to even talked about being routinely groped. All attitudes feminists of the 70s campaigned to leave behind.

But I don't think this is simply about girls being victims – I think boys are under just as much pressure, and are just as confused about what their role is, particularly (and ironically) in the face of female success. Georgia, who’s fifteen and who co-founded the Campaign 4 Consent which lobbies for consent to be taught as part of the national curriculum, said something that really struck me – "it's hard to educate people about this because we're teenagers ourselves and it sounds preachy if we tell boys what they should be thinking - what we really need are role models, like adults and teachers who they admire, to come in and say why this is wrong. We need an entire attitude change and not just one person."

I'd really love parents and teenagers to watch the film together tonight, and have a genuine discussion about pop videos, rape jokes, computer games and porn… and talk about where they want to draw the line.

OP posts:
AGoodDad · 09/05/2014 09:06

Meglet - Can't think why agooddad has lost contact with his kids in a family court hmm.

Actually I raised two children on my own because their mother was a dead beat mother and has never contributed towards them. Not 1 penny. Despite raising 2 well behaved and respectful children on my own (and done a better job than most single mothers I've known) I lost contact with a child in a later relationship simply because the mother wanted it. She was allowed to lie and be abusive. She committed crimes which were ignored by the police and courts. She even abused my two children yet the courts favor women. Why? Because Misandry and inequality is rife in family law.
As I've said all along, I'd be happy for true equality yet every women on here has slammed me for that.

scallopsrgreat · 09/05/2014 09:10

You see your privilege and perceived superiority are shining through in that post. But this isn't about you. This is about the abuse of women by men and about how society upholds that.

AGoodDad · 09/05/2014 09:21

Scallopsrgreat - You see your privilege and perceived superiority are shining through in that post. But this isn't about you. This is about the abuse of women by men and about how society upholds that.

Not once have I defended Misogyny, sexism or inequality, not once have I said there should be any form of superiority. They only person here who has defended any form of sexism is you. So who is the sexist here, YOU. Lie in the bed you make!

AGoodDad · 09/05/2014 09:30

For example 70% of the world's farmers are women. - So much inequality, better get more men in there and make 30% lose their jobs!

scallopsrgreat · 09/05/2014 09:34

Why 30%? I'd just like to have more than a 1% share of the world's wealth for doing 60% of the labour.

diege · 09/05/2014 09:40

83% of (paid) domestic workers worldwide are women (ILO 2010) - sounds like they're taking pretty much all responsibility for doing these 'lowly' jobs at least...

scallopsrgreat · 09/05/2014 09:43

So what you want is women to do more of the low paid jobs. And yet when they do yoybwant to make them unemployed from that to the advantage of men so denying that income too. And you call that equality?

ginmakesitallok · 09/05/2014 09:45

Thought provoking programme. What I found really really sad was a Facebook post I came across this morning from a young woman, stating that it was rubbish, and was just ugly old women jealous of the attention being given to young pretty women. Was so sad that sexism and misogyny are culturally accepted now. (Oh and she also thinks that it's girls' mums' fault that they don't feel they can say no to serial advances from men.

scallopsrgreat · 09/05/2014 09:46

Oh and I haven't defended any form of sexism. Not unless you think the fact that women are the only ones who can give birth as sexist. You however have suggested that violence against women is deserved.

diege · 09/05/2014 09:46

I think it's clear that equality is the last think AGoodDad (sic) wants...

AGoodDad · 09/05/2014 09:46

For example 70% of the world's farmers are women.
83% of (paid) domestic workers worldwide are women

So you have these board rooms full up then, what are you complaining about?

scallopsrgreat · 09/05/2014 09:48

Oh god thats so sad ginmakesitallok Sad

Redoubtable · 09/05/2014 09:48

Basic Psychology, no? That a member of an outgroup will identify with the values and prejudices of the more powerful mainstream (in order to reduce the perceived threat to themselves).

Happens all the time.

scallopsrgreat · 09/05/2014 09:50

True colours shining through now AGoodDad (in case anyone had missed them before).

No women are doing the low paid jobs. The men are still in the boardrooms of those industries.

diege · 09/05/2014 09:54

Hmmm, maybe because the 83% of women doing these jobs didn't actually have a portfolio of other jobs to choose from? That some of them they get paid less than a penny a day for doing the work? If you truly believe in equality AGoodDad you can surely see that there's something amiss here? Confused

funnyossity · 09/05/2014 09:54

I was particularly put out by the bus incident, (probably as I spend more time on public transport than the internet..) and the woman who thought it was all ok as she works behind a bar and knows what drunk males are like (I imagined her adding "bless them"!). When did it become precious to not want crude songs sung aggressively by a gang on the bus?Confused

My guess is those privileged yobbos don't think people worthy of respect even use the bus. (Introducing diversionary class element, sorry..)

scallopsrgreat · 09/05/2014 09:56

This is from the Wall Street Journal (that well known feminist publication). It states that women make up 40% of the workforce and own 1% of wealth. That is paid workforce obviously. There is an awful lot of labour that goes on that is unpaid and the majority is done by women.

It also shows the pay gap between the sexes.

BuzzardBird · 09/05/2014 10:01

I'm pretty sure he just wrote a post without the misogynistic word 'whine' in it! I think he is turning! Shock

diege · 09/05/2014 10:12
Grin
Creeping · 09/05/2014 10:44

If there is prejudice against men in the family courts, it is because some of the prejudices against women that hold them back in other areas of society, such as that they are the carers more than men, in this case work in their favour. They are patriarchal ideas about childrearing, of what women are supposed to be, and I suppose as an extension, of what men are supposed to be. They are NOT the result of misandry or a feminist plot.

Agooddad's conclusion that women should only expect equality when men are never the victims of a patriarchal society is of course idiotic. Or that they should shut up about inequality because there are a few male victims of patriarchal ideas too, is incredibly short sighted. Nothing will change if the fight for equality stops, not for women, not for men in the family courts.

Having said that, family courts should have the interest of the children as their priority. Men may have difficulty showing how they can be primary carers because their lives are not set up for it, while this may be easier for women because their lives are set up for it (patriarchal society at work here). In an ideal non-sexist world childrearing becomes the responsibility/joy/burden of both parents as a default (both work part-time, both take parental leave etc) instead of mainly the woman's, and it should become easier to show that a father will look after the children as well as a mother.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 11:02

Sorry to go back in the thread, but just to explain:

Misandry does not exist.

It some possible world, it could exist, just as we could have lived in a world where white people were ruthlessly oppressed and we experienced black supremacy. However, we don't.

Since misogyny is the structural oppression of women, it can coexist with misandry, which would be the structural oppression of men. The two would cancel each other out.

Sexism towards men can and does exist, of course. But the wider context is of a society that is biased against women, and this wider context informs those instances of sexism.

If you chose, you could express this by saying 'well, there is sexism against men and sexism against women, but the sexism against women is more damaging and we know more people are killed by male violence than female violence, we know more women live in poverty than men, we know women earn less, etc. etc.' Or you could say 'there is misogyny and there is sexism against men; misandry does not exist'. To me, the latter is simply a lot more meaningful and useful, although the former isn't particularly difficult to accept either.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 11:04

'Since misogyny is the structural oppression of women, it cannot coexist with misandry, which would be the structural oppression of men. The two would cancel each other out.'

Apologies.

ManWithNoName · 09/05/2014 11:15

LackaDAISYcal - I was going to show my DSs it too but on a bit late for a 12 - 14 yr old on a school day. That said I also thought the images and language were pretty strong. Not sure I actually wanted them to see it now.

The Grand Theft Auto segment was the most shocking part. My DSs asked for that game a few years ago - I said no and never. I had heard about it but never seen clips from it.

In recent months I have heard my Ds talking about girls in ways I don't like. Talking about their body shapes and to be frank talking about girls in ways that suggest they are entitled to sex with them. Its only talk but I know they are getting it from school (boys with older brothers etc.) and internet. Music videos too.

DW and me pick them up on it and talk to them and make them think about what they are saying but it is relentless.

Our DSs go to a 'nice' private school too and achieving reasonable grades. Its not about social class, background and intelligence. It crosses all boundaries and starts at quite a young age. Probably younger than many parents realise.

Its not just the boys. Girls play up to it, feel pressured, go along with it, accommodate it. There are two sides to the coin.

funty · 09/05/2014 11:17

I found a lot of the program depressing and disturbing and thank god I am not a young girl growing up now. It was the first time I have seen footage of what is actually in Grand Theft Auto and it made me feel physically sick.It has prompted me to come on here for the first time in a while to be reassured hopefully. Why on earth it is legal to design and sell a 'game' where you can run over, punch and stamp on women after having sex with them? Is this really 'entertainment'? I am horrified that it sells so massively well as it makes me think it is not as stated earlier, a small isolated group of people who think this is normal. I am also very worried as a parent of boys what kind of message it is giving their developing minds. I would never buy them a game like this but know they will be exposed to at some point as friends' parents seem to think it's OK. Why would anyone buy that for their children? I feel like I'm unusual in wanting to protect my boys from these horrific images. I know there were more shocking real life examples but my point is that these are illegal and the games are not. Please tell me I'm not the crazy person here!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 11:20

manwith -yeah, that bit with Rod Liddle claiming it was about social class made me furious!

funty - no, me too. I found a lot of the imagery really hard to deal with. I don't watch music videos so I guess I'm insulated from all of that and I think I'll happily stay that way!

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