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Guest post: Kirsty Wark on misogyny - are things getting worse for girls?

299 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 08/05/2014 12:50

I am an optimist. I was optimistic in the 1970s that life was getting better for women. The Equal Pay Act in 1970 was followed five years later by the Sex Discrimination Act and I thought, naively, that the legislation would trigger the death of sexism, the end of sexual harassment and the bullying of women at work, controlling relationships, and domestic violence. In short, a revolution. And by the time that I had my children in at the beginning of the 90s I still had that optimism. Now they're in their early 20s, I'm not so sure.

Of course much has improved for women and girls - our lives are probably unrecognisable to our grandparents. There is no job we cannot do, no heights we cannot scale. And girls are doing brilliantly in the classroom. So why in the last few years does there seem to have been a tidal wave of openly hostile and aggressive behaviour towards women, from the online response to Professor Mary Beard's participation on Question Time last January, to young women at school being 'slut shamed' and touched up; from prostitutes being beaten up and killed on a video game, to some of our best known comedians thinking rape jokes are a great laugh? Last year it was even possible to buy a t-shirt proclaiming 'I'm feeling rapey.' Why has the conversation around women become so coarse? And – crucially – what does it mean for the next generation?

For a new BBC2 documentary – Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the Sexes - I set out to investigate. When looking at several examples of sexism and misogyny that had provoked outrage, in order to gauge their offensiveness, what was striking was that the 'pain threshold' was so different, among both men and women. And particularly with young people.

Take the case of Stirling University men's hockey team singing a new, significantly more explicit, version of an old drinking song on a busy public bus at around nine o'clock at night. A video had been taken on a phone and posted on the internet. To give you flavour:

A lady came into the store one day asking for an orgasm. An orgasm she wanted – who gives a f* what she got…

A lady came into the store one day asking for a lady train. A lady train she wanted – a miscarriage she got…

When we spoke to students at Stirling University about it, one, Katie said "I think it's okay because obviously I know some of the guys and I know that they are not sexist", whereas another, Miriam, told me "this song isn't a one off, terrible song that a group of bad individuals have sung - this is a common example of every day occurrences that really highlight an underlying misogyny."

Offended or not, there was a common feeling that this sort of behaviour was "normal". And, as some students pointed out, if Family Guy, Jimmy Carr and Frankie Boyle can tell rape jokes, and the like, why shouldn't they? This split over whether humour renders misogyny harmless, or just acts as a cover for it, came up with schoolgirls that I spoke to too. Yaz, seventeen, told me she “would hear at least three [rape jokes] every day just walking down the corridors”.

Humour, of course, has always played an important role in breaking taboos. But with a resurgence of retro-sexist jokes and banter, I wanted to know whether it could have an impact. And when we probed the research the results were striking – suggesting (in the experiments at least) that when sexist men heard sexist jokes it reinforced their attitudes, and in the immediate aftermath they were more likely to act in a sexist way.

But it's not just sexist jokes that young people are facing. The internet, a thing of marvels in many ways, has seen an explosion in attacks on women and is the gateway to all kinds of content. It's also where the next generation are growing up. So where are the trusted guides to navigate this space? We spoke to teenage boys in a sex education class, and some of them admitted to watching porn. No surprise there, but the girls in the class worried that this would give the boys a pretty skewed view of healthy teenage sexual relationships – thinking they should be the "focus" of sex, and more "dominant". Some schoolgirls we spoke to even talked about being routinely groped. All attitudes feminists of the 70s campaigned to leave behind.

But I don't think this is simply about girls being victims – I think boys are under just as much pressure, and are just as confused about what their role is, particularly (and ironically) in the face of female success. Georgia, who’s fifteen and who co-founded the Campaign 4 Consent which lobbies for consent to be taught as part of the national curriculum, said something that really struck me – "it's hard to educate people about this because we're teenagers ourselves and it sounds preachy if we tell boys what they should be thinking - what we really need are role models, like adults and teachers who they admire, to come in and say why this is wrong. We need an entire attitude change and not just one person."

I'd really love parents and teenagers to watch the film together tonight, and have a genuine discussion about pop videos, rape jokes, computer games and porn… and talk about where they want to draw the line.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 21:01

Yes - and you know what else? I've just been chatting with someone, and she told me that apparently, from the 1930s in English law, lawyers have personalised the individual you're meant to imagine when you try to think about what a person might 'reasonably' think and do. And surprise surprise, that default person is a man.

I know it's a tiny thing in some ways, but it really hit home to me, that fact. If even in our legal system, we're imagining that the default 'reasonable' point of view is one we can associate with a man, how are we ever going to stop men assuming that if they think something is acceptable 'banter', we're allowed to say it's not?

rabbitrisen · 09/05/2014 21:02

I do wonder if "free speech" is partly to blame.
I cant remember where that originated from, but it became a widely accepted "ideal".
Which seems to have backfired spectacularly.

Darkesteyes · 09/05/2014 21:07

I was on the Vagenda webchat on this board earlier in the week . Its not just lads mags and womens mags it is also the diet industry mags (Slimming World and Weight Watchers etc) I have experience of the pressures put on women while dieting which I mentioned in that webchat.

Pick up any diet industry mag and find any interview with a woman who has lost weight and I GUARANTEE you, one of the questions will always be "What does your husband think" And the diet industry mags are getting away with it because they are hiding under the banner of health.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 21:09

Oh, I didn't see that! Was it good?

I admit I don't really 'get' Vagenda but maybe I'm not the right demographic for them.

vesuvia · 09/05/2014 21:15

LRDtheFeministDragon wrote - "the individual you're meant to imagine when you try to think about what a person might 'reasonably' think and do. And surprise surprise, that default person is a man."

He is "the man on the Clapham omnibus".

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 21:19

Yes! That's it.

(This is one of the moments where I wonder if my different internet personae are coinciding. Grin)

Darkesteyes · 09/05/2014 21:28

Watching the vid of them on the OP they covered the pressures on older women as well. Im just glad that a mirror is being held up to the way media treat women.

ManWithNoName · 09/05/2014 21:36

FairPhyllis/NeilDiamond - I'll give you an answer to this:

"I am getting more and more disappointed with men as a group. Why aren't the non-sexist ones standing up and loudly saying this stuff isn't OK? Why are we fighting this by ourselves?"

I see sexist and frankly gross misogyny on a variety of forums every day. The sort of thing that was highlighted in last nights programme. On political and economics forums I often visit the level of abuse directed at women politicians and other significant female public figures is extreme. It happens on virtually every forum I visit - except MN of course. Anyway, on occasions I have had a go at both the people posting and complained to the blogger or operator of the forum. Not often but I have done it. Nothing happens.

If I complained every time I saw sexist comments or offensive misogyny on the internet in a blog or forum I would be doing nothing else all day. It is that relentless and widespread. I have never seen a woman stick her head above the parapet and complain on a forum. Vey few men do.

Truth is most people just want to get on with enjoying the forum and let the sexist idiots talk to themselves. I do that too.

Darkesteyes · 09/05/2014 21:56

Great post grimbletart.

grimbletart · 09/05/2014 22:39

Thanks Darkesteyes. Sometimes I feel despair for today's young women.The shit they face. I especially feel it when I read the thread on schools teaching about masturbation, anal sex etc. It illustrates what a different and difficult world girls now inhabit. I thank the lord the only thing we had to worry about at school was algebra and bloody Virgil. And yet we managed to grow up without being prudes or repressed.

I am really glad my generation had a proper childhood and glad I am now officially a crone Grin

I honestly believe the most useful things today's parents can do is 1) teach their sons to bloody well behave themselves and 2) to teach their daughters to do what they hell they want and that what boys think of them does not matter one iota.

3TeensAargh · 09/05/2014 22:55

I agree grimbletart. I'm fairly ancient myself and thankfully freed from the tyranny of constantly worrying what people think of me. The world is slow to change so I think we need to teach our girls steely resilience - 'Whether you approve of me does not matter, but whether I approve of you does'. Also I would like to see women really coming together to do business in a different way using our emotional intelligence and team spirit. If men won't let us succeed in a man's world, stuff them. Let's create a parallel world of our own.

OutsSelf · 09/05/2014 23:11

I think there is a degree to which people don't recognise their own privilege - I don't notice my privilege as a white person because many experience seems natural to me. I do try to notice it and can obviously see its effects - I work in Universities and they are very white particularly in regards to faculty. But at the moment it operates, it's often hard to perceive. So I'm hoping that there is a degree to which this is the case for men.

That said, I have a special sort of rage for the, "I'll support you in this (but not be active myself)" bullshit that loads of selfstyled liberal men give out to their female friends and family. If you claim right on principles but not act because it basically makes you a supporter of patriarchy because as patriarchy entails a specific relationship between men and women, men have to be part of the change.

Having said that, I just want to point out that patriarchy hails us all to identify with its values, meaning that within a patriarchal system men and women equally can be guilty of misogyny. I know lots of misogynistic women, who are gulity of victim blaming, who say shit about women being bitches, who hold women to different standards for childcare, who tell my DD she should be gentle or kind where they don't expect it of DS, who unfailingly comment on my / DD' s clothes and appearance though manage to ask DS what he's been up to/ thinks of the weather. A thousand tiny cuts, really, from women who would not in any way consciously identify as misogynist. Which is not to say that women are responsible for the patriarchy and certainly they are less empowered to change it. But we are all subjects of it and being female does not mean you are incapable of misogyny. Misogyny persists in individuals who identify with its values, male or female.

Darkesteyes · 09/05/2014 23:11

grimble I think things were better when I was growing up too I put some examples upthread of why i think this. I wouldn't want to be a young woman now.

alreadytaken · 10/05/2014 09:47

sports clubs have always sung filthy misogynist songs. I remember finding a song book at niversity and finding it difficult to believe that my normal boyfriend sang that rubbish. He did, peer pressure does ensure that this behaviour continues.

Several things have changed. Women can and do now compete with men for higher paid jobs so are more of a threat. Those who can't compete feel resentent. Porn is far more freely available, seen at a younger age and is much more explicit and violent than when I was young. The internet does allow those who hold minority views to come togather and have their prejudices reinforced. Young women dont generally seem to have the same confidence we had in ourselves when young and seem to accet being judged on their appearance far more readily.

I was hoping to find on mumsnet action to deal with this. Women have a lot of purchasing power and if we make it clear that we will not buy into misogny it will become less prevalent. So, for example, refuse to buy from anywhere that used poor advertising, refuse to buy Grand Theft Auto or have it in your home, complain to the parents of others who allow their child to have it.

hollyisalovelyname · 10/05/2014 09:50

Great news in Ireland
Female:
Minister for Justice
Chief State Solicitor
Acting head of our police force
DPP ( I think)
and one other can't remember.

FairPhyllis · 10/05/2014 10:42

ManWithNoName

Truth is most people just want to get on with enjoying the forum and let the sexist idiots talk to themselves. I do that too.

OK, but then you shouldn't kid yourself that you're not part of the problem too. If you choose to use those sites and contribute to their content, community and ad revenue without confronting the culture of the site, or only confronting it when it's at its most egregiously awful, you are just another man who passively tolerates misogyny when it suits you.

Why would a reasonable human being even want to hang out on those sites if they contain so much misogyny? Would you hang out on any other site that contained offensive material?

I guess the question is, if you find it so offensive, why don't you boycott those sites? My guess is because you think that whatever small pleasure you get out of those forums is more important than women.

If you want to count yourself as a feminist ally you need to acknowledge that by using those sites you've made a choice that is about prioritising your wants (to read some people spouting off about politics) over passively supporting woman-hating cultures on the internet which fuel RL contempt and violence against women. Feminist allies are people who walk the walk and make some sacrifices in their lives for the sake of creating a culture in which women are treated with the respect they merit.

What's at stake here is nothing less than a culture in which women are people. You say your sons are already feeling entitled to women's bodies. That's because in a tiny way they already think we are not fully human.

funnyossity · 10/05/2014 14:28

alreadytaken I would not complain to a parent about what they have in their home. They are not my friends but members of a community with different values to me. I don't complain about the preaching at the evangelical church either. I do discuss it with my own children.

Did you dump the singing jock? I could more easily have done that as it is within a personal circle.

ManWithNoName · 10/05/2014 17:12

FairPhyllis - fair enough but then again I never see women (and really mean never) standing up against it on internet forums. There are mainstream sites so not like places only men frequent or specifically 'male' interest.

It is so overwhelming and constant that I think we all tolerate or ignore it for the sake of sanity and being able to get through life on a daily basis.

Should I really be expected to complain about every single sexist comment I see on every single site?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 10/05/2014 17:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FairPhyllis · 10/05/2014 18:04

Yes. Exactly that. Or, more simply, boycott the forum. I don't go on sites where I know I will encounter that culture. If all men like you who think they are allies actually stood up against that culture, it would crumble.

I think one of the most important parts of the documentary was the description of the studies which showed that misogynist men feel validated by others saying misogynistic things and then go on to feel less inhibited about doing sexist things in everyday life. They will also feel validated by the silence of men like you. Your silence is complicit here.

And saying 'oh but the women don't stand up against it either' is a frankly ridiculous and victim-blaming way of justifying yourself. Not all women are feminists. Or perhaps they have learned that even the allegedly "non-sexist" men won't back them up on this, so they don't bother?

Recognising one's own sexism is a painful process. But frankly I expect men who want to be allies to recognise it in themselves, deal with the pain of it and then do something constructive to help women instead of getting pissy about being asked to confront painful truths about themselves.

It doesn't seem like very much to ask when women are the ones getting raped, assaulted, murdered and abused on a daily basis.

ManWithNoName · 10/05/2014 18:10

FairPhyllis - these are mainstream and very well known forums with tens of thousand of members. I would have to boycott hugely popular areas of the internet. I don't want to do that any more than you do

I don't like it but what you are suggesting is unrealistic.

Its like the young woman in the programme who likes gaming. From what she said, it seems she puts up with it for the sake of doing what she likes doing. It doesn't mean she likes or agrees with it. Same with me.

NeilDiamondRocks · 10/05/2014 18:54

Ok so stay on the forums and challenge it when you see it. I go on mainstream forums and I challenge misogyny wherever I see it. Men don't like it and they have tried to silence me again and again but they are wasting their time. I cannot imagine ever being or ever wanting to be the kind of cowardly person who sits back watching while women get pounded. But it seems a lot of men have no problem doing that just.

ManWithNoName · 10/05/2014 19:06

I'm talking maybe 20 - 30 comments a day. I just don't have the time or energy for that. As I said, I have sometimes had a real go at people about sexist misogynist comments. Maybe I should do it more often.

I tell you what. Next time I see it on a particular blog I go on I will make a stand and have a real battle. Just to see what happens. I don't think it will make the slightest bit of difference. The men who do it really don't care and they will not change their mind because I tell them to. I suspect I will be ignored. Most people just want to enjoy the blog - 'like I do'.

I often see racist comments too FWIW.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 10/05/2014 19:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rabbitrisen · 10/05/2014 19:30

See this is what I dont like.
Here we have a man[presumably] who is willing to do his bit, or more than his bit, and he is still being berated.
Give him 6 months, more like 3 nowadays, and he will have disappeared off of here, just like all the others.