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Guest post: Kirsty Wark on misogyny - are things getting worse for girls?

299 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 08/05/2014 12:50

I am an optimist. I was optimistic in the 1970s that life was getting better for women. The Equal Pay Act in 1970 was followed five years later by the Sex Discrimination Act and I thought, naively, that the legislation would trigger the death of sexism, the end of sexual harassment and the bullying of women at work, controlling relationships, and domestic violence. In short, a revolution. And by the time that I had my children in at the beginning of the 90s I still had that optimism. Now they're in their early 20s, I'm not so sure.

Of course much has improved for women and girls - our lives are probably unrecognisable to our grandparents. There is no job we cannot do, no heights we cannot scale. And girls are doing brilliantly in the classroom. So why in the last few years does there seem to have been a tidal wave of openly hostile and aggressive behaviour towards women, from the online response to Professor Mary Beard's participation on Question Time last January, to young women at school being 'slut shamed' and touched up; from prostitutes being beaten up and killed on a video game, to some of our best known comedians thinking rape jokes are a great laugh? Last year it was even possible to buy a t-shirt proclaiming 'I'm feeling rapey.' Why has the conversation around women become so coarse? And – crucially – what does it mean for the next generation?

For a new BBC2 documentary – Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the Sexes - I set out to investigate. When looking at several examples of sexism and misogyny that had provoked outrage, in order to gauge their offensiveness, what was striking was that the 'pain threshold' was so different, among both men and women. And particularly with young people.

Take the case of Stirling University men's hockey team singing a new, significantly more explicit, version of an old drinking song on a busy public bus at around nine o'clock at night. A video had been taken on a phone and posted on the internet. To give you flavour:

A lady came into the store one day asking for an orgasm. An orgasm she wanted – who gives a f* what she got…

A lady came into the store one day asking for a lady train. A lady train she wanted – a miscarriage she got…

When we spoke to students at Stirling University about it, one, Katie said "I think it's okay because obviously I know some of the guys and I know that they are not sexist", whereas another, Miriam, told me "this song isn't a one off, terrible song that a group of bad individuals have sung - this is a common example of every day occurrences that really highlight an underlying misogyny."

Offended or not, there was a common feeling that this sort of behaviour was "normal". And, as some students pointed out, if Family Guy, Jimmy Carr and Frankie Boyle can tell rape jokes, and the like, why shouldn't they? This split over whether humour renders misogyny harmless, or just acts as a cover for it, came up with schoolgirls that I spoke to too. Yaz, seventeen, told me she “would hear at least three [rape jokes] every day just walking down the corridors”.

Humour, of course, has always played an important role in breaking taboos. But with a resurgence of retro-sexist jokes and banter, I wanted to know whether it could have an impact. And when we probed the research the results were striking – suggesting (in the experiments at least) that when sexist men heard sexist jokes it reinforced their attitudes, and in the immediate aftermath they were more likely to act in a sexist way.

But it's not just sexist jokes that young people are facing. The internet, a thing of marvels in many ways, has seen an explosion in attacks on women and is the gateway to all kinds of content. It's also where the next generation are growing up. So where are the trusted guides to navigate this space? We spoke to teenage boys in a sex education class, and some of them admitted to watching porn. No surprise there, but the girls in the class worried that this would give the boys a pretty skewed view of healthy teenage sexual relationships – thinking they should be the "focus" of sex, and more "dominant". Some schoolgirls we spoke to even talked about being routinely groped. All attitudes feminists of the 70s campaigned to leave behind.

But I don't think this is simply about girls being victims – I think boys are under just as much pressure, and are just as confused about what their role is, particularly (and ironically) in the face of female success. Georgia, who’s fifteen and who co-founded the Campaign 4 Consent which lobbies for consent to be taught as part of the national curriculum, said something that really struck me – "it's hard to educate people about this because we're teenagers ourselves and it sounds preachy if we tell boys what they should be thinking - what we really need are role models, like adults and teachers who they admire, to come in and say why this is wrong. We need an entire attitude change and not just one person."

I'd really love parents and teenagers to watch the film together tonight, and have a genuine discussion about pop videos, rape jokes, computer games and porn… and talk about where they want to draw the line.

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:39

"when they aren't willing to do most of the bottom jobs etc." Hahaha. This is like a comedy show now except of course he is debating and lying about women's lived experiences. Not so funny when you are having to put up with the shit he is denying.

Darkesteyes · 08/05/2014 23:41

scallop its MAJOR gaslighting Scary.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:43

It is.

wonderstuff · 08/05/2014 23:46

How do we achieve sexual liberation? It's so deeply ingrained and from what the teenage girls were saying online porn is making it more difficult for girls. I do really like the idea of teaching consent. Wasn't there a case recently where a young man raped an unconscious woman and stated at trial he didn't think it was rape because she didn't say no?

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:46

Anyway I'll have to love you and leave tonight. I'm off to bed to concoct more great feminist conspiracies to catch up on the beauty sleep that clearly us wimmin need.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:50

Sorry one last post. I think it's also about teaching boys that they aren't entitled to sex and women aren't here for their pleasure. Teaching them to respect women's boundaries.

EBearhug · 08/05/2014 23:50

EBearHug. Why dont they start up their own businesses in it?

Some do, starting of course with Dame Steve Shirley in the '60s (great speaker - do go and hear her, if you get the chance.)

I've also known women contractors, but if you're in your own business in IT, you're likely to end up working for other companies, and may well be in their offices, even if you're not directly employed by them.

Not everyone wants to run their own business, though. It's not something that's ever particularly appealed to me. I like being part of a big organisation.

AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 23:56

Scallopsrgreat - I am all for a women being equal to men, even on a sexual basis. I never use the term "slut" and would never label a woman for having or wanting sex. It's nature. I think many women make very bad choices though in the men and life they choose. There are many sexist men out there, often these are the "Lads lad" type that many women seem drawn to, why??
It is wrong to focus on a limited number of sexist men as if that was the entire male population. I'm not denying that there is sexism against women in many walks but you have to admit, feminism has gone to the opposite extreme and hardly stands for equality anymore.
I have been a bit of a devils advocate here but the reality is that there is much discrimination against men that is largely ignored and even suppressed by the feminist cry. After all if someone has been racist against you is it ok to be racist against them, NO. Why is it ok for feminism to ignore discrimination against men if equality is truly what they want?
I personally don't see or understand why feminism focuses so intently on jobs in the board room or promotion when it should be on the masses and getting them in equal jobs etc. Progression will then occur naturally rather than forcing a few to the top who haven't necessarily earned or deserve the role.
I don't agree with the violence against women or the sexual connotations where it is not sought. I personally do think that more should be done to reach equality but things need to be equal both ways.
In family law it is largely favorable towards women where children are involved. I have experience of this and while women want equality in the workplace they should be willing to give up their advantages in the Family, particularly in the family courts given that so many relationships with children do break up.

bunchoffives · 09/05/2014 00:01

manwithnoname I think the best way to improve things would be to explicitly extend the definition and concept of prejudice to women.

There is a law against inciting hatred towards ethnic minorities, religious groups, races, disabled people - how about extending that to women?

Also, instead of specifically addressing misogyny in schools it might be better to teach treating all others with respect.

And enshrine in law the concept of something like 'grievous disrespect', where if a complainant can show that disrespect has caused serious harm then they can have recourse in law.

Not sure that would be workable without a lot of refining, but I'd love to have a way of getting rid of things like page 3 that just perpetuate the culture of women as slightly sub-human, and certainly as inferior.

AGoodDad · 09/05/2014 00:06

bunchoffives - I think that just teaching respect for a fellow human and some responsibility for your actions but these seem to be values that are suppressed in modern schools and family. The "Do good" ways to never discipline etc are creating a nation of irresponsible and emotionally immature adults and regression is occurring.

bunchoffives · 09/05/2014 00:24

AGoodDad - I'm not engaging in conversation with you even over the internet because of your previous posts.

AGoodDad · 09/05/2014 00:35

bunchoffives - if you'd read my preavious posts you'd see that I mentioned I was being a bit of a "devils advocate" do you understand the concept?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 00:53

Right, I've finished watching it. Smile

It's brilliant, isn't it? I thought the girls they had on the show were so good, it was really heartening to see that because I don't know how I would have coped with some of the levels of misogyny they were getting.

bunch - strongly agree about redefinition. It is necessary, unfortunately.

What strikes me so strongly here is how much some men really want to make out that there are no social structures of privilege. Rod Liddle seemed completely ignorant of that. I don't know if it was the editing (though it didn't look that way), but didn't it completely go over his head when Wark pointed out that someone comparing him to a lesbian isn't just being rude to him (an individual), they're being rude - or discriminatory - to an entire class of women?

AGoodDad · 09/05/2014 01:04

LRDtheFeministDragon - While I think most of the issues addressed are real and that discrimination or misogyny is all around us, the opposite being Misandry is almost as prevalent, just not exhibited in the same way.
We are blasted day after day with feminist propaganda in the media etc about how women are the underdogs, how men are evil and how women should be replacing men in the workplace that it has just become a noise or as I call it a "Whine" of "we hate men and want them to step aside".
If the feminist movement wants some credibility it should start but pushing for equality including giving up privileges where women have them above men. Then maybe feminism will have some credibility.

AGoodDad · 09/05/2014 01:13

There is a law against inciting hatred towards ethnic minorities, religious groups, races, disabled people - how about extending that to women?

Equality for women and more where it suits us? Sounds like modern feminism.

How about extending that to women AND MEN?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/05/2014 01:27

Misandry does not exist.

EBearhug · 09/05/2014 02:51

as I call it a "Whine" of "we hate men and want them to step aside".

I think you need your hearing or brain tested, because I haven't heard anyone say "we hate men" nor we "want them to step aside". I think what most people are saying is, "we want to be treated fairly and with respect." But you just go ahead and filter that through your bitterness.

CluelessCrapParent · 09/05/2014 04:23

This is timely and I have been thinking about this a lot although wasn't crystallising it in a coherent way.

I also this this ties in with the raising number of singletons, and I blame the sexist, misogynistic culture and explosion of internet porn on this. Against the bombardment of this, you can see why men find it difficult to treat women with respect and how it warps their expectations of women in a relationship. The women, knowing this, are probably thinking (wisely) why would they engage in a relationship with a man with such views....makes it very hard for both sexes to meet in the middle.

antimatter · 09/05/2014 05:56

ADoodDad you say "Most IT men would welcome more women in the industry."

Are you working in IT?

merrymouse · 09/05/2014 06:48

I am very glad that the law is giving more equality to men in the area of maternity leave, and I hope that we will reach a stage where an employer is as likely to imagine that a man will take a few months off/a career break around the birth of his children as a woman and will be as likely to take a day off/leave on time to take care of child care issues. If men step up to the plate I think this will make the biggest difference to equality in the work place and at home.

Re: jokes and 'banter', surely the measure of whether a joke or song is sexist/racist/biggotted is whether the target finds it offensive. It wouldn't be up to the rugby club to decide that its OK to sing offensive songs about 'niggers' on the bus because they aren't really a bunch of racists.

merrymouse · 09/05/2014 06:52

"How about extending that to women AND MEN?"

I wasn't on the netball team - is there a culture of women singing this kind of song? If it is a problem, obviously it should also be addressed.

teaandthorazine · 09/05/2014 06:53

We are blasted day after day with feminist propaganda in the media etc about how women are the underdogs, how men are evil and how women should be replacing men in the workplace that it has just become a noise or as I call it a "Whine" of "we hate men and want them to step aside".

Where?

Who has said men are evil? Who has suggested that they should 'replace men'? Give me one example. Oh, hang on, you can't can you?

You live in a fantasy world, with your 'feminist propaganda' and your 'studies' and 'statistics', and when you're challenged on it you backpedal and say 'I was only playing devil's advocate'.

Your arguments are ridiculous.

Footle · 09/05/2014 07:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OwlCapone · 09/05/2014 07:50

Misandry does not exist.

Hmm
scallopsrgreat · 09/05/2014 07:53

I am all for a women being equal to men, even on a sexual basis. That's so big of you. Thanks for that. But it's OK I don't want women to be equal with men on a sexual basis as that would mean being equal in terms of rape and sexual assault. How about men just change their behaviour and stop raping and sexually assaulting women?

I have been a bit of a devils advocate here No, no you haven't. And here's the thing about being devils advocate. Permission denied

It is wrong to focus on a limited number of sexist men as if that was the entire male population. Apart from the fact no one has done that, it's not wrong to focus on patterns of behaviour.

I don't agree with the violence against women or the sexual connotations where it is not sought. So you do believe that some women deserve violence against them. What a lovely man you are.

I personally don't see or understand why feminism focuses so intently on jobs in the board room or promotion when it should be on the masses and getting them in equal jobs etc..Really did you miss the equal pay act? Yes feminists fought for that. For a long time. Men didn't just give up there privilege there. Remind me again what privileges women have over men?

In family law it is largely favorable towards women where children are involved. I have experience of this... Imagine my surprise that you have 'experience' of this. If you want 'equality' in family law then men need to show equality in terms of childcare prior to going to court. Only you see you already have equality in family law. In fact the courts bend over backwards to give abusive men access to their children. You just don't recognise it as equality as it, generally, actually reflects the amount of work women put into childcare. Men no longer own their children so actually have to show that they will care for them and look after them on a day to day basis. Yep that's the face of equality. Dreadful isn't it?

And I'm not sure why you have a problem with expanding hate crime to cover women? The programme clearly showed hatred towards women is alive and kicking. In fact you've shown it admirably on this thread. Maybe that's what you are worried about? You wouldn't be able to spout your misogyny without recourse. Hard innit.