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Guest post: Kirsty Wark on misogyny - are things getting worse for girls?

299 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 08/05/2014 12:50

I am an optimist. I was optimistic in the 1970s that life was getting better for women. The Equal Pay Act in 1970 was followed five years later by the Sex Discrimination Act and I thought, naively, that the legislation would trigger the death of sexism, the end of sexual harassment and the bullying of women at work, controlling relationships, and domestic violence. In short, a revolution. And by the time that I had my children in at the beginning of the 90s I still had that optimism. Now they're in their early 20s, I'm not so sure.

Of course much has improved for women and girls - our lives are probably unrecognisable to our grandparents. There is no job we cannot do, no heights we cannot scale. And girls are doing brilliantly in the classroom. So why in the last few years does there seem to have been a tidal wave of openly hostile and aggressive behaviour towards women, from the online response to Professor Mary Beard's participation on Question Time last January, to young women at school being 'slut shamed' and touched up; from prostitutes being beaten up and killed on a video game, to some of our best known comedians thinking rape jokes are a great laugh? Last year it was even possible to buy a t-shirt proclaiming 'I'm feeling rapey.' Why has the conversation around women become so coarse? And – crucially – what does it mean for the next generation?

For a new BBC2 documentary – Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the Sexes - I set out to investigate. When looking at several examples of sexism and misogyny that had provoked outrage, in order to gauge their offensiveness, what was striking was that the 'pain threshold' was so different, among both men and women. And particularly with young people.

Take the case of Stirling University men's hockey team singing a new, significantly more explicit, version of an old drinking song on a busy public bus at around nine o'clock at night. A video had been taken on a phone and posted on the internet. To give you flavour:

A lady came into the store one day asking for an orgasm. An orgasm she wanted – who gives a f* what she got…

A lady came into the store one day asking for a lady train. A lady train she wanted – a miscarriage she got…

When we spoke to students at Stirling University about it, one, Katie said "I think it's okay because obviously I know some of the guys and I know that they are not sexist", whereas another, Miriam, told me "this song isn't a one off, terrible song that a group of bad individuals have sung - this is a common example of every day occurrences that really highlight an underlying misogyny."

Offended or not, there was a common feeling that this sort of behaviour was "normal". And, as some students pointed out, if Family Guy, Jimmy Carr and Frankie Boyle can tell rape jokes, and the like, why shouldn't they? This split over whether humour renders misogyny harmless, or just acts as a cover for it, came up with schoolgirls that I spoke to too. Yaz, seventeen, told me she “would hear at least three [rape jokes] every day just walking down the corridors”.

Humour, of course, has always played an important role in breaking taboos. But with a resurgence of retro-sexist jokes and banter, I wanted to know whether it could have an impact. And when we probed the research the results were striking – suggesting (in the experiments at least) that when sexist men heard sexist jokes it reinforced their attitudes, and in the immediate aftermath they were more likely to act in a sexist way.

But it's not just sexist jokes that young people are facing. The internet, a thing of marvels in many ways, has seen an explosion in attacks on women and is the gateway to all kinds of content. It's also where the next generation are growing up. So where are the trusted guides to navigate this space? We spoke to teenage boys in a sex education class, and some of them admitted to watching porn. No surprise there, but the girls in the class worried that this would give the boys a pretty skewed view of healthy teenage sexual relationships – thinking they should be the "focus" of sex, and more "dominant". Some schoolgirls we spoke to even talked about being routinely groped. All attitudes feminists of the 70s campaigned to leave behind.

But I don't think this is simply about girls being victims – I think boys are under just as much pressure, and are just as confused about what their role is, particularly (and ironically) in the face of female success. Georgia, who’s fifteen and who co-founded the Campaign 4 Consent which lobbies for consent to be taught as part of the national curriculum, said something that really struck me – "it's hard to educate people about this because we're teenagers ourselves and it sounds preachy if we tell boys what they should be thinking - what we really need are role models, like adults and teachers who they admire, to come in and say why this is wrong. We need an entire attitude change and not just one person."

I'd really love parents and teenagers to watch the film together tonight, and have a genuine discussion about pop videos, rape jokes, computer games and porn… and talk about where they want to draw the line.

OP posts:
teaandthorazine · 08/05/2014 23:10

scallops - I would imagine the fact that only 5% of the prison population is female is down to the Great Feminist Conspiracy?

Ain't that right, AGoodDad? Btw, niiiiice victim blaming in your last post. Women make men be violent towards them? Classy stuff, well done.

wonderstuff · 08/05/2014 23:11

Definitely male identity is a big issue. I became much more aware of gender issues, of feminism when I started my family, my husband and I went from equal to having to deal with a whole bunch of stuff we hadn't had to before. Child care is 'women's work' in society, there is a totally different idea of 'mother' who can be at home or at work, married or single, we've redefined her and she has changed a lot in the last 30 years. A 'father' however is rarely the primary parent, he works full time, if he is single his contact with his children is minimal, which is a problem for men and women. Same with girls, they can be 'tomboys' we celebrate it. But boys? My son wanted to be a princess for a few months, my husband found it deeply uncomfortable. He didn't understand why, I think it's because really most men, even men who are not sexist, see feminine as inferior.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:13

Oh yes I love a Great Feminist Conspiracy teaandthorazine Grin

AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 23:14

Scallopsrgreat, It is fact that women committing the same crime as a man are treated more leniently. Thats why prisons aren't full of women.

Try as a man reporting a women for abuse. They will either ignore it or as often happens, she just has to claim the man did something first and HE not her will be arrested and charged. Family and domestic law is a women playground. Feminists (Harman, May) in 2 successive governments have been running the home office. (who define police/court procedures for dealing with crimes) No surprises then that the stats show many womens crimes have been swept under the carpet. Harman was even trying to make it law that if a women killed a man using "I thought he wanted to harm me" as a defense would be valid.
I don't dispute the stats, but they are evidence of discrimination in the police and courts.

ladyblablah · 08/05/2014 23:15

I put it it the floor that it would be very hard to be 'agooddad' with these cripplingly aggressive, misogynistic, sexist, entitled and disgusting views.

I'd say the courts saw right through you and good on them.

Darkesteyes · 08/05/2014 23:15
AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 23:15

" Women make men be violent towards them?" I never said this?

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:16

Nope they aren't. Women are generally giver harsher sentences than men for the same crime. They are also more likely to be in prison for first offences than men.

StephanieDA · 08/05/2014 23:16

The biggest 'whiner' on here (to use his word) is agooddad. Yes, it's just as bad for men. It's awful the way men are continually threatened with graphic sexual abuse when they are on the t.v. or online. Terrible how the extreme sexual violence towards scantily-clad men is used as entertainment for women, just to sell games. Really bad how all these men get explicit threats of sexual violence and death on Twitter, and have the size and shape of their penises and what we'd like to do with them graphically described whenever they dare state a point of view on a public platform. Awful how they are displayed as meat in the newspapers every day, as if they are just sexual commodities for the entertainment of women. And how they get their penises grabbed in public and have to put up with women yelling 'Whoooar! Look at the cock on that!' whenever they go out. And all these bloody comedians continually making jokes about extreme sexual violence towards men. And the number of schoolboys facing all that unwanted sexual touching from the girls. Not to mention all the pop videos showing women in clothes surrounded by writhing pouting men in tiny g-strings. It's a shame Kirsty Walk didn't mention all that.

teaandthorazine · 08/05/2014 23:18

No surprises then that the stats show many womens crimes have been swept under the carpet

Again, some actual evidence to back up your increasingly bonkers claims would fab, thanks.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:19

"Women make men be violent towards them?" I never said this?

Yes you did: "They Also empower these men to do it to others as they think it's ok."

teaandthorazine · 08/05/2014 23:20

They Also empower these men to do it to others as they think it's ok. I'm not saying its right for them to do it. But women are also fueling it.

Which bit of this have I misunderstood?

Darkesteyes · 08/05/2014 23:21

Kirsty Wark doing the papers on Newsnight just now.

"Taxman to raid joint accounts The wife could lose money even if its the husband who is in arrears"

ManWithNoName · 08/05/2014 23:21

AGoodDad - I really cannot accept that it is the fault of women that men abuse them. Oh and before you say it, yes I do know a man who was very seriously physically abused by his female partner. It still doesn't make any difference to the unavoidable fact that a significant numbers of men are perpetrating routine abuse of women online and in real life

Anyway, lets get back to the programme. Does anyone have any concrete suggestions as to how to improve things?

I think lessons at school about 'consent' and 'online abuse of women' and about 'real sexual relationships' would a good thing. It would at least give us a fighting chance that we can get our teenage children to think about the issues properly.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/05/2014 23:23

Thank you for a really interesting post.

I don't know how to judge if things are getting worse, but I certainly think the internet has had a huge impact in showing up how men and women expect to relate to each other. You see it on MN all the time. There's a certain sort of man who assumes that he deserves rather more time, consideration and respect than women do. It's hardly surprising, because we know that in real life, we tend to give men more time to speak. But it doesn't quite work when we're all on an anonymous forum, and these men get het up when suddenly they're forced to act on a level playing field.

I find it very revealing.

I'm also remembering the absurdity of F4J's whinings against Justine and MN as a whole, as I read this thread, and being stunned and amused anyone can accuse feminists of whining.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:24

"she just has to claim the man did something first and HE not her will be arrested and charged" I would laugh only it's so horrendous for women how untrue that statement is.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:26

I know the irony of calling us whining women when all he's done is whine himself and come out with unproven bullshit statements.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/05/2014 23:27

Ooh, brilliant, it's just up on iplayer. Smile

And yes, it is ironic isn't it scallops.

AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 23:30

StephanieDA - The biggest 'whiner' on here (to use his word) is agooddad. Sure, go into Tesco and pull all the Pink mags that women love and you'll find women whining as a commercial commodity.

Many of the things you mention are women putting themselves in that position. Was Mylie Cyrus forced to do wrecking ball. I doubt it etc etc. Sort out the women amongst yourselves who sell themselves into what you see as wrong and stop blaming men for their actions.

I'm just pointing out that this is the problem with feminism and women today. There is whining everywhere about glass ceilings etc. So instead of whining a very one sided view, go out and start in the lowly jobs like sewage workers etc build the balance from the bottom up. Don't just whine because not enough women are getting the cream at the top when they aren't willing to do most of the bottom jobs etc.
Then if you want equality, give up the inequalities in your favor and be equal.

Darkesteyes · 08/05/2014 23:31

Going back to the programme I TOTALLY agree with Germaine when she says sexual liberation for women hasn't happened.
In many cases women are too scared to say they like and want sex. Too nervous to say what they really want in bed. Because of the Madonna/whore dichotomy. The fear of slut shaming (still not sure I like that phrase for it)

Many women are putting up with uncomfortable unfulfilling sex. Because of fear of asking for what they want.

Darkesteyes · 08/05/2014 23:32

Women aren't willing to do most of the bottom jobs? Ooh that has let me in nicely Back in a min Grin

StephanieDA · 08/05/2014 23:34

You really can't see the irony can you AGoodDad, coming into a serious debate about a shocking programme and telling us we're whining, and all this stuff is women's fault.
And thank you for telling me what I need to do if I 'want equality.'

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:35

"I'm just pointing out that this is the problem with feminism and women today." Imagine my surprise in a man telling us how we are doing feminism and even womanhood wrong. Because obviously how women behave can only be done with reference to men and their feelings.

We see you.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:37

I hate the phrase slut shaming too. It implies that some women are sluts. They aren't. Although I'm sure AGoodDad will have views on that

Darkesteyes · 08/05/2014 23:37

Zero hours contracts most likely to be offered to women ,young people and those over 65.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/05/jobseekers-zero-hours-contracts