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Guest post: Kirsty Wark on misogyny - are things getting worse for girls?

299 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 08/05/2014 12:50

I am an optimist. I was optimistic in the 1970s that life was getting better for women. The Equal Pay Act in 1970 was followed five years later by the Sex Discrimination Act and I thought, naively, that the legislation would trigger the death of sexism, the end of sexual harassment and the bullying of women at work, controlling relationships, and domestic violence. In short, a revolution. And by the time that I had my children in at the beginning of the 90s I still had that optimism. Now they're in their early 20s, I'm not so sure.

Of course much has improved for women and girls - our lives are probably unrecognisable to our grandparents. There is no job we cannot do, no heights we cannot scale. And girls are doing brilliantly in the classroom. So why in the last few years does there seem to have been a tidal wave of openly hostile and aggressive behaviour towards women, from the online response to Professor Mary Beard's participation on Question Time last January, to young women at school being 'slut shamed' and touched up; from prostitutes being beaten up and killed on a video game, to some of our best known comedians thinking rape jokes are a great laugh? Last year it was even possible to buy a t-shirt proclaiming 'I'm feeling rapey.' Why has the conversation around women become so coarse? And – crucially – what does it mean for the next generation?

For a new BBC2 documentary – Blurred Lines: The New Battle of the Sexes - I set out to investigate. When looking at several examples of sexism and misogyny that had provoked outrage, in order to gauge their offensiveness, what was striking was that the 'pain threshold' was so different, among both men and women. And particularly with young people.

Take the case of Stirling University men's hockey team singing a new, significantly more explicit, version of an old drinking song on a busy public bus at around nine o'clock at night. A video had been taken on a phone and posted on the internet. To give you flavour:

A lady came into the store one day asking for an orgasm. An orgasm she wanted – who gives a f* what she got…

A lady came into the store one day asking for a lady train. A lady train she wanted – a miscarriage she got…

When we spoke to students at Stirling University about it, one, Katie said "I think it's okay because obviously I know some of the guys and I know that they are not sexist", whereas another, Miriam, told me "this song isn't a one off, terrible song that a group of bad individuals have sung - this is a common example of every day occurrences that really highlight an underlying misogyny."

Offended or not, there was a common feeling that this sort of behaviour was "normal". And, as some students pointed out, if Family Guy, Jimmy Carr and Frankie Boyle can tell rape jokes, and the like, why shouldn't they? This split over whether humour renders misogyny harmless, or just acts as a cover for it, came up with schoolgirls that I spoke to too. Yaz, seventeen, told me she “would hear at least three [rape jokes] every day just walking down the corridors”.

Humour, of course, has always played an important role in breaking taboos. But with a resurgence of retro-sexist jokes and banter, I wanted to know whether it could have an impact. And when we probed the research the results were striking – suggesting (in the experiments at least) that when sexist men heard sexist jokes it reinforced their attitudes, and in the immediate aftermath they were more likely to act in a sexist way.

But it's not just sexist jokes that young people are facing. The internet, a thing of marvels in many ways, has seen an explosion in attacks on women and is the gateway to all kinds of content. It's also where the next generation are growing up. So where are the trusted guides to navigate this space? We spoke to teenage boys in a sex education class, and some of them admitted to watching porn. No surprise there, but the girls in the class worried that this would give the boys a pretty skewed view of healthy teenage sexual relationships – thinking they should be the "focus" of sex, and more "dominant". Some schoolgirls we spoke to even talked about being routinely groped. All attitudes feminists of the 70s campaigned to leave behind.

But I don't think this is simply about girls being victims – I think boys are under just as much pressure, and are just as confused about what their role is, particularly (and ironically) in the face of female success. Georgia, who’s fifteen and who co-founded the Campaign 4 Consent which lobbies for consent to be taught as part of the national curriculum, said something that really struck me – "it's hard to educate people about this because we're teenagers ourselves and it sounds preachy if we tell boys what they should be thinking - what we really need are role models, like adults and teachers who they admire, to come in and say why this is wrong. We need an entire attitude change and not just one person."

I'd really love parents and teenagers to watch the film together tonight, and have a genuine discussion about pop videos, rape jokes, computer games and porn… and talk about where they want to draw the line.

OP posts:
AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 22:39

In many internet games the player can take on the character of a women and can go out and abuse men. Why was this not mentioned? Misandry again? Whine louder about women rights and ignore the fact that it's also men affected. There's a trend here.

ladyblablah · 08/05/2014 22:40

I take back my interest agooddad. I literally don't care.

Great yet depressing programme.
I really liked the first bit about how people can look at the same thing can be watched and there can be such a massive disparity in how they morally view it.

I wonder if it's 'just' down to education.

BillStickersIsInnocent · 08/05/2014 22:42

Same here wonderstuff, a 1979 baby. My parents brought me up (and school to be fair) to think I could achieve anything I was able to do. I only really encountered sexism and sexual violence/aggression in university.

It seems like a different world. It is terrifying really, all those teenagers who learnt about sex from porn. Sad

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 22:43

The only person whining here is you Agooddad.

And yes violence against men does happen although the vast majority of it is perpetrated by men. Men sort yourselves out will you.

AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 22:43

You could make a copy of the program with everything "against" women switched for the equivalent against men. The only reason it won't be taken seriously is because we don't have a continuous stream of men whining at us on a daily basis about it.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 22:45

Whine whine whine

ManWithNoName · 08/05/2014 22:46

AGoodDad - I went on the internet in 1995 just 4 years after the WWW was created. I go in many chat rooms and post on many forums and in all that time I have never once had anyone threaten to rape me or abuse me in any way that had sexual overtones.

Women face it all the time. Yes there is misandry but its not even close the same scale as what women face day in day out both online and in the real world.

As I said earlier, men have always behaved in this way towards women. Its not new. Nearly everything on the programme I have witnessed in real life. heard men say things like the recordings on the programme.

You are a man, you must have had the same experience as me?

Surely you must think your mother, sister, girlfriend, wife, female colleagues and female friends should not have to put up with every day online and in the real world?

The programme wasn't about us (men) and the problems we face. We should acknowledge that there is a major issue and it is us (men) who cause it.

AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 22:46

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EBearhug · 08/05/2014 22:47

You cant compare IT workers to computer games. Most IT men would welcome more women in the industry. They have traditionally not gone into it by choice. Even the government has tried to encourage more women in IT but they haven't flocked to it. DUH it's not misogeny it's a choice made by women.

A lot of IT workers are gamers, there's a lot of cross-over.

And the reasons women "choose" not to go into it are cultural. The figures for women in IT are worse in cultures like the US, UK, western Europe, Australia than in Africa, south America, Asia, even the middle East.

Women "choose" not to go into IT because it does have an image of being a male career. The geek stereotype is primarily a male stereotype, rather than one a girls will easily identify with. It gets tiring, having to put with all the assumptions that you can't be the technical expert, because you're the woman in the meeting. You need stamina to stay with a techy career as a woman, having to fight harder for payrises and promotions and any recognition. You need a thick skin to put up with the sexist comments that you do still get from time to time, circulated "jokes" and so on (which are against most employers' codes of conduct). Even signs on the datacentre door saying, "caution, men working behind doors, floor tiles removed," makes you feel like you don't count, even though it's not intentional - the default is that it's men doing those sorts of jobs, not women like me. (To be fair on that one, they did change the signs within half an hour of me complaining, and I got a very nice apology.) In last year's Computer Weekly/Mortimer Spinks Women in technology survey, "64% of women have felt discriminated against in their job because of their gender."

It should be a good career for women - IT is the backbone of everything we do these days. It can be interesting, well-paid, flexible. There's a whole load of different roles in all sorts of industries. I have done work with local schools to encourage girls to consider it as a career - but I sometimes think I'm not doing them any favours by doing so.

Women choose not to work in IT and leave careers in IT in large part because of misogynistic attitudes and stereotypes. It is far from a level playing field.

BillStickersIsInnocent · 08/05/2014 22:47

Great post.

teaandthorazine · 08/05/2014 22:49

A recent study showed that more women in the age range of 18 - 25 where abusive than men, bet they don't stop after 25. More maternal mothers abuse or kill their children than paternal fathers.

Links, please.

BillStickersIsInnocent · 08/05/2014 22:50

Because, agood dad, the courts (currently) focus on the best interests of the child, not on the needs or 'rights' of either parent.

AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 22:52

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AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 22:53

teaandthorazine do the research yourself, you'll find it true.

OutsSelf · 08/05/2014 22:54

As a feminist, I think our core problem is the construction of masculinity. While men require distorted sexual appetites and are expected to depress their empathic qualities and eschew loving relationships in favour of jobs, power and status in order to realise themselves as male, we're actually not going to get anywhere. To my mind, misogyny is casual and not organised and is a side effect of ongoing male fascination with and anxiety about other men. Women are just another aspect of how that identity is created and buttressed; they can not bequeath men masculinity in the eyes of other men and only come into focus when they frustrate the desires of men to appear properly masculine in the eyes of other men. Until men sort out their relationships to one another, women will be in the cross fire. I think this is why we get the occasional aggrieved man railing against the unfairness of patriarchal expectations of them; it's a pity they do not realise that the feminists are fighting for them and not against them.

teaandthorazine · 08/05/2014 22:56

No, I'd like you to provide the links to the studies you are quoting, please.

AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 22:56

Best interests of the child? They keep no record of whether the best needs have ever been met. A mother never has to go into court to prove from the start she is the better parent. A dad is assumed to need to do this even is the mother is abusive. That's Discrimination, not best interests of a child.

rabbitrisen · 08/05/2014 22:56

EBearHug. Why dont they start up their own businesses in it?

ManWithNoName · 08/05/2014 22:56

AGoodDad - I think you are getting way off the topic but we need to keep very firmly in mind that it is NOT the fault of women that men abuse them online and in the real world.

It really is the fault of men.

Darkesteyes · 08/05/2014 23:01

AGooddad So you are saying that women choose men who abuse.
Blatant victim blaming..
I notice you don't blame the victim when you were posting about it being the other way around.
Very telling.

ManWithNoName · 08/05/2014 23:02

OutsShelf - I think you are on to something there.

My own very unscientific observation is that misogynist sexist men try to recruit other men to their cause and often bully men who refuse to join them.

It speaks of insecurity.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:04

"teaandthorazine do the research yourself, you'll find it true" Don't bother. It's not true.

Between April 2001 & March 2012 93.6% of murders were committed by men. British Crime Survey. Not a feminist publication.

5% of the prison population is women. A third of them are in for shoplifting. The figures to say women of any age are more violent than men just don't add up. Men are more likely and quicker to report DV than women. Abusive men will regularly claim their partner committed DV.

Stop gaslighting women AGoodDad and start sorting out men's shit.

AGoodDad · 08/05/2014 23:05

ManWithNoName - "it is NOT the fault of women that men abuse them online and in the real world.

It really is the fault of men."

I disagree, so many women put themselves forward for this kind of abuse running after the "Lads lad" When they find it they complain that they did. They Also empower these men to do it to others as they think it's ok. I'm not saying its right for them to do it. But women are also fueling it. But judging men as a whole based on these few is wrong.

There is much sexism against men in countries such as the UK but it is ignored on the whole because men get on with it and don't publish hundreds of "pink" magazines full of "He abused me" rubbish and the media isn't flooded with it.

Darkesteyes · 08/05/2014 23:07

AGoodDad you disgust me.

scallopsrgreat · 08/05/2014 23:08

Men abuse women because they feel entitled to. Because they want control them. Because they are violent. What are you going to do about the huge problem of male violence AGoodDad?