When did you notice that your child was gifted and talented?

[lijaco]

If your child is gifted or talented in a subject is it because you have spent time yourself teaching to your child. For example showing your child how to do something, providing your child with all the necessary resources, and giving your child encouragement by out of school activities. Simple things for example going to the library to enjoy reading. Spending quality time making your child feel good about themselves and praising them. Also having the ability to do all of the above as a parent. This is a good starting ground for any child. So if you don't get any of the above as a child you will find that you may not be counted as a gifted and talented because you have never been shown or spent time with. If a child is shown how to do something it is then that we uncover a gift or a talent. What about those children who are never shown or encouraged. How do we then know who and what is truly gifted or talented. That brings me to how the gifted and talented criteria needs to be changed as every child is at a different starting point due to lots of factors. Every child matters and every child is an individual. This brings me to the point when did you discover that your child was gifted or talented? Was it when you had been teaching your child something? or is it something that you yourself are passionate about? Did you identify it or your school? Was you aware of it?

Some people never take responsibility-it is always someone's fault!

Touching story about the boy at the till. It would support your point if the story continued with how he enjoyed the checkout job so much - and the valuable contribution it made to humanity - that he decided to forego Oxford and spend the rest of his life behind the counter.

Or was he, like some others, doing a crap job (for him) because it paid some pocket money till he could move on to something worthy of his ability?

In ten years he'll be at checkout again, looking at the staff there and likely thinking, "Thank goodness I got my PhD and am doing a proper job".

There isn't one major figure in education, the education department of this (left wing) government or among inspectors of education who believes that we shouldn't be giving our most intelligent children special attention.

"Very strange to blame teachers years after leaving school. Surely with maturity you learn how to go for your goals. Rather sad for an adult to blame others for their failures."

I am blaming teachers for failing gifted children today. I'm in pretty good company. The chief of grammar schools yesterday went public with strong comments about how the whole school system is failing intelligent children. OFSTED believes teachers aren't doing what they should be doing for intelligent children and the chief inspector has always stressed that we are wasting our academic talent. The government's own review of G&T in 2001 is very clear that teachers are failing intelligent children. The previous Chief Inspector of school said there are at least 15,000 incompetent teachers who should be sacked, many of them are doing a dismal job of educating our brightest pupils. The single category of children most failed by teachers is gifted.

But, hey, what do all these fools know? They probably don't have a week's worth of checkout experience between them. We should all scream at them in unison, "Let the bloody kids take responsibility for their own lives instead of blaming the teachers!"

I've met Chris Woodhead and liked him. However, I'm not sure that the majority would describe him as 'pretty good company' for views on education. He's not exactly uncontroversial. In his recently published book he says:

"There are two fundamentally different views of education. On the one hand, there is the emphasis on the child. The insistence that everything must be relevant to the child's experience and to the perceived needs of society. The argument that the teacher should be a mentor or a coach who facilitates the growth of the child's understanding. The current obsession with personalisation. On the other, there is the belief that the school is an institution in which children are initiated by teachers, who are authorities in their subjects, into a body of knowledge which has no immediate connection to their lives or necessary relevance to the problems of society. I believe in the latter." This seems rather counter some of your arguments.

I personally have no particular issues with grammar schools, or streaming. Would support the development of highly regarded vocational schools as well (they have this system in Japan - and my experience of the vocational schools is that they work well and the education they provide is respected). Yes traditional exams taken at 16 and 18 have become easier in terms of academic ability required to get equivalent marks. And there are other issues, I personally think the modular system is incredibly stressful for students. I'm not sure the current flawed system fails gifted children particularly. It's still a challenge to get an A* and the IB is available for most to access if they want to be stretched further in the 6th form. The current exam system is problematic for all sorts of reasons and the issues with it affect all children - not just the gifted.

If you type children failed by education system into google you quickly find the group most failed- those in the care system, followed by those with special needs. I know you find it hard to stomach that those with SN have more money spent on them than the gifted, but there we go. It's with some good reason.

And your comments about checkout staff are pretty vile. FWIW I have a degree from Oxford and a PhD and do not think myself above till work.

"I'm not sure the current flawed system fails gifted children particularly. "
Now if you can find one prominent educationist who shares your view...

"I know you find it hard to stomach that those with SN have more money spent on them than the gifted, but there we go"
On the contrary, I'd like them to spend even more. Unlike with some parents of SEN children I don't see it as competition for resources. There are lots of free resources made available to teachers to cater for gifted children - and they are not using them! I'd like them to start with doing their job and discharging their responsibilities to gifted children within what they have now. I'd like them to change the mind set that gifted children already have an advantage which they need to remove.

here here saintly!!

Dadatlarge you are of a misconception that g & t children are being failed by the system. Actually a lot of children are failed by the system for a great many reasons. All children should be getting special attention! How would that be equal of opportunity to only give some children special attention. How elitist is that comment! I have never expected school to give my children specialist treatment, if I found them to have a gift or a talent I would research how I could nurture this. What ever it takes I would do. I would never expect my child to be superior to anybody else.
You are also failing to identify that the gifted children being failed are not the ones identified within the top 5 / 10 percent either!!!!!! That is clearly my point there are a lot of gifted and talented kids not identified because it is the method of assessment that is NOT accurate. Now as taking responsibility for your own life does not really apply to primary school age, but children of secondary school age are able to make choices and understand consequences. In fact Dadatlarge you twist words that people put in their threads. You read something and make it apply to you. Its not where you start its where you finish!

you even have taken the advantaged thing and changed its meaning dadatlarge! Not being already advantaged because they are clever! Already advantaged because they are from financially well off backgrounds. Private Education sector for example. That is an advantage. Money for all the extra's needed to label them gifted and talented.

Your view of teachers is simply too cynical for me DAL. Ds2 (year 2) came home from school a few months ago and said he was starting his year 3 maths books, he got a well done from me then he told me about a girl in his class who was almost on her year 4 maths book. For all I know there may be children still on their year 1 maths book- it doesn't really matter- the point was that the feedback from ds2 is that children are working at their own individual level in his classroom at their own pace- as they should be. Likewise they all have individual spelling tests. I was under the impression this was rather standard in schools. The child who cannot be accommodated in this sort of system is going to be very rare.

I see no evidence that teachers are trying to hold back gifted children. Why on earth would they? I suspect every child in their school career will come across at least one teacher they struggle in their relationship with, but that's hardly a concerted effort by teachers to destroy the gifted child

My eldest dd is by all accounts v advanced for her age. I want her to have fun and take advantage of play and development of her social skills.
I wasn't hothoused or paid much attention to academically and it worked out very well.
I think many bright children aren't well equipped to deal with ordinary child situations and I want to keep away from that if possible.
Sometimes I think there is a focus placed on G&T where it is completely unnecessary.

"Unlike with some parents of SEN children I don't see it as competition for resources. There are lots of free resources made available to teachers to cater for gifted children - and they are not using them! I'd like them to start with doing their job and discharging their responsibilities to gifted children within what they have now. I'd like them to change the mind set that gifted children already have an advantage which they need to remove."

Even a teacher's time to chase up free resources is a finite resource. Most teachers I know work far longer hours than they get paid for.

That is why I feel that the responsibility has to be shared between the school, my dd and myself as a parent, not dumped solely on the teacher. Teachers often also have responsibility towards their own family. A weekend spent chasing up resources for somebody else's child is a weekend not spent on your own children. Naturally, they will try to prioritise the amount of extra work they do.

I agree with saintlydamemrsturnip. I am always amused by thse who think that school can't cope with the clever DC. Work is individual. If a DC can do the yr3 maths work backwards with their eyes closed then a good school isn't going to make them plod through it! They can't possibly all have the same spelling test-there are usually about 3 groups. It isn't elitist-it is teaching DCs according to their need. The talented mathematician that I mentioned earlier went to a comprehensive. The grammar school weren't going to make any special provision because 'all our boys are clever' but the comprehensive had been treating him as an individual 2 yrs before he went there. My DS's friend who got practically 100% for all maths exams went to the same comprehensive and now has a first class degree from a top university.
Every DC has needs, special to them-schools should cater for them. Good schools do.

"Even a teacher's time to chase up free resources is a finite resource. Most teachers I know work far longer hours than they get paid for."
It's not so much the teachers' time, it's their bias and determination to even out the high flyers. The G&T coordinator has the job of keeping up to date and feeding the teachers with resources so teachers don't have to "give up their weekends".

We have teachers in our family and therefore lots of teachers, Heads and D. Heads in our circle of friends and acquaintances. You know what happens when a Yr 1 teacher caters properly for bright children in the class? Other teachers further up the chain bitch about her making their lives more difficult. A lot of that goes on. Evening out is what it's about.

"It isn't elitist-it is teaching DCs according to their need....Good schools do"
Exactly! But the report cards have come in and... most schools don't.

"I see no evidence that teachers are trying to hold back gifted children."
You should give your evidence to the experts, inspectors, educationists and government panels who seem to disagree.

"Your view of teachers is simply too cynical for me DAL."
Don't get me wrong, there are some good teachers and some very good teachers. But frighteningly large numbers of them are ideologically oppposed to giving children who have the "gift" of intelligence any further advantage. In fact, many of them would like to see these children evened out and they work towards it. There is no such feeling against SEN children or any other category of children you may feel the system is failing. Many teachers refer to G&T kids as "gits". They make jokes about them and share stories on how they undermined provision for G&T. Can you see them referring to SEN children disparagingly? The attitude needs to change first.

"You read something and make it apply to you. Its not where you start its where you finish! "
I know neither where you start nor where you finish, lijaco. I have great difficulty understanding your posts. I hope your pupils understand what you're saying better than I do. If you ever decide to give up teaching I hear good things about checkout assistants' jobs.

Well, what Saintlydame describes is what happened to me at primary school and, in fact, what I was describing just now to DH as we discussed DS2's latest educational 'blip'. But it doesn't happen in DS2's class or school. There aren't books to work through; they don't use text books and they certainly don't get given them individually according to need. The teacher copies out some work around a topic and she doesn't give the most advanced children sheets from the next year. There is extension work, but the range in that group is very large, and there are spelling groups, but again, the children in the top spelling group can spell all the words already and don't really need to spell any better. Instead of learning spellings, they should be doing something else that's teaching them something.

DH and I were just talking about how to encourage our children's interests further out of school, in fact.

Dadatlarge this is the bit for example that you have read and applied it to yourself.

I am blaming teachers for failing gifted children today. I'm in pretty good company. The chief of grammar schools yesterday went public with strong comments about how the whole school system is failing intelligent children. OFSTED believes teachers aren't doing what they should be doing for intelligent children and the chief inspector has always stressed that we are wasting our academic talent. The government's own review of G&T in 2001 is very clear that teachers are failing intelligent children. The previous Chief Inspector of school said there are at least 15,000 incompetent teachers who should be sacked, many of them are doing a dismal job of educating our brightest pupils. The single category of children most failed by teachers is gifted.

It is obviously important to you where you finish and it would be very interesting what your story is ten years from now. As you judge quiet harshly what people do for a living. I think you understand perfectly what I am saying.

I love my job teaching Art and won't be giving it up too soon. I have actually worked as a checkout assistant and I have no problem with this kind of a job. I have respect for everybody and the work that they do!

I came from a very disadvantaged background and proud of where I am today. I achieved this after leaving schooL !!!!!

singersgirl, you are doing the right thing for DS2. We try and provide out of school too.

But that's not a good reason to let the school off. Approach them nicely first and explain your concerns. Take it up with the Head later if you're still unhappy with the classroom provision.

'In fact, many of them would like to see these children evened out and they work towards it. There is no such feeling against SEN children or any other category of children you may feel the system is failing. Many teachers refer to G&T kids as "gits". They make jokes about them and share stories on how they undermined provision for G&T. Can you see them referring to SEN children disparagingly? The attitude needs to change first. '

I don't know where you live DadatLarge but it is a very sad place! Either that or you read the Daily Mail too often!
I am sorry but I just don't recognise this at all. I supply teach in a lot of schools and I have never come across it, and I certainly haven't come across it among my many teacher friends and acquaintances.

'"I see no evidence that teachers are trying to hold back gifted children."
You should give your evidence to the experts, inspectors, educationists and government panels who seem to disagree.'

Could you quote some, give their name and their experience?

'You know what happens when a Yr 1 teacher caters properly for bright children in the class? Other teachers further up the chain bitch about her making their lives more difficult. '

This is the teacher's job!! It makes the job easier.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder DadAtLarge-I can only think that you have a poor personal experience.

Most teachers do the job because they like working with DCs! This point seems to be missing.

Pisces: I have an acquaintance who is a teacher and she took on the role of G&T co-ordinator. Why? Because you get responsibility points for being the GT co-ord and, as we all know, points mean prizes (otherwise known as extra salary). She took the job in the last year before retiring which meant, since teachers get a pension related to their final salary, she got bunce for the rest of her life for not doing much for the gits (yes she called G&T gits, too).

I have a friend who is the G&T advisor for her LEA. She organises a lot of special courses which are always popular and fully booked by the schools. She never calls them gits-and I have to say that I had never heard the term before this thread.

I have never heard the term gits either???
The thread here is about when did you notice that your child was gifted or talented? I am very interested to hear views on this. Dadatlarge is just trying to cause chaos because he is in fact a TROLL! WARNING DON'T BITE HIS BAIT!

Teachers are not trying to hold back gifted and talented children! I just wish the method of assessment was fair. There is so much more to a child.

Just goes to show how much G&T provision is a postcode lottery, like so much in education. I had a friend who tried to get support for his Gifted DC and never got anywhere because the role of G&T co-ord was passed around like a hot potato. My friend invariably knew more than the co-ord and had to train them up ... only to find that they moved on and he had to start all over again training the next incumbent (assumimg someone was appointed, quite often there was a gap). They all promised 'jam tomorrow' but never hung aroung long enough to actually deliver.

FWIW pieces My own ds experience at his primary schools echoes what dadatlarge has to say

Ds current school is constantly trying to get all pupils to conform conform conform. All children performing below average get help. Those above get given differentiated work in maths for example - but even then in ds case its still way too easy for him.
Conformity is the key!

Arghhhh

lijaco - I am appalled that you have called troll on Dadatlarge. I have never suspected for a second that he is

I have however often thought that you are - but havent said cos clearly that would be rude!

my experiences agree with pisces

have never ever heard a teacher suggest that there is anything annoying about dd being gifted (indeed her Yr 2 teacher said wistfully if I only had a class of K's)

otoh teachers have frequently mentioned (and put on her school reports) how much trouble it is to deal with a child with a physical disability

but her brains- no, they're all delighted

nothing to do with ideology, just that pushing a wheelchair is harder work than giving somebody full marks for an assignment

understandable, if a little sad

I am sorry that you have a poor experience Yurtgirl. It must be a postcode lottery. It certainly isn't conform in my area-I wouldn't want to teach if it was! I had a wonderful part time job about 18 months ago working with the YR 5 top DCs in Maths and Literacy and it was fantastic-I loved it and so did the DCs. I can't imagine why any teacher would want to dumb down.

Postcode lottery is correct I think

"It's still a challenge to get an A* and the IB is available for most to access if they want to be stretched further in the 6th form"

I don't think this is true for gifted children. IB is not very widespread yet and many children find A* (at GCSE anyway - too early to say for A level) very easy. I know children who are scoring top marks in every assesment/informal test etc throughout the year as well as getting 100% in exams - clearly the curriculum is too easy for them. Some schools are getting around it by offering AS levels early - this isn't always just to a few, but often to quite large numbers of children. But there are still loads of schools where this isn't an option. GCSEs plainly don't provide enough challenge for bright kids let alone gifted ones.