When did you notice that your child was gifted and talented?

[lijaco]

If your child is gifted or talented in a subject is it because you have spent time yourself teaching to your child. For example showing your child how to do something, providing your child with all the necessary resources, and giving your child encouragement by out of school activities. Simple things for example going to the library to enjoy reading. Spending quality time making your child feel good about themselves and praising them. Also having the ability to do all of the above as a parent. This is a good starting ground for any child. So if you don't get any of the above as a child you will find that you may not be counted as a gifted and talented because you have never been shown or spent time with. If a child is shown how to do something it is then that we uncover a gift or a talent. What about those children who are never shown or encouraged. How do we then know who and what is truly gifted or talented. That brings me to how the gifted and talented criteria needs to be changed as every child is at a different starting point due to lots of factors. Every child matters and every child is an individual. This brings me to the point when did you discover that your child was gifted or talented? Was it when you had been teaching your child something? or is it something that you yourself are passionate about? Did you identify it or your school? Was you aware of it?

In a way, I agree with a lot that DAL says (though not the bits about whose contribution to society matters). But about the desirability to cater for the gifted, and particularly to support those whose giftedness is combined with some sort of SEN.

But at the same time, I just can't see myself, if my own dd went off the rails, blaming somebody else who "failed her", I just can't see myself thinking she is not responsible for her actions.

I suppose it's because I've always thought of myself as an individual with responsibility for my actions. Seeing her case as different would imply that I somehow don't see her as a real person in the same way that I think of myself.

She has a harder row to hoe than most of her peers - being disabled and in pretty well constant pain- I just can't get my head round thinking of her as a passive victim. I see her as somebody who makes choices.

"There is a group of people who pay for all manner of social costs like pensions, free school meals and housing benefits. These are the earners in society and they pay different amounts and it's right that they pay. But we need to also accept that some people pay a lot more than others. We need these people, we need to know that we as a society are producing enough of them (not least cause one day soon I'm going to be drawing a pension )

"How awful for a child to feel they're a failure if they want to become ...a beautician rather than a nuclear physicist."
That child is a failure if she can and would like to become a physicist but backward thinking in schools dumbed her down so her only job option is plucking eyebrows. The school's job is to help her reach her full potential and let her decide when she's mature enough whether she wants to be a scientist or a manicurist."

These are incredibly right wing views don't you think? The value you place on some jobs above others, the worth you apply to the wealthy, the idea that anyone with an above average IQ has to be working in a professional role whilst those who are less bright must be doing the menial jobs. That's not something I see reflected in society. I know people of average intelligence who have attended Oxford and medical school, I know very bright people who don't have an academic qualification to their name and who couldn't write an essay but have in some cases become very successful. Earlier you mentioned cleaners, I've cleaned and yes I had the academic qualification needed to go to medical school (would never had made as a surgeon as I border on dyspraxic). YOu seem to assume that a cleaner couldn't possibly become a surgeon. Why? Is it because in your world only people of low intelligence become cleaners? I've also worked on supermarket tills and been patronised by the same type of person who becomes delighted to meet you once they discover you're at Oxford. I saw through it when I was 20 years old, and it sickens me almost 20 years later.

I mentioned learning disabilities because it's the only way your post makes sense. If you are literate and without learning disabilities then your opportunity for success and to do 'good things' (even by your values) is no different because you happen to be 20, 30 or even 40, 50, 60 IQ points above someone else.

occasionally i do wonder whether an msc fits me for my next 15buck (£8) an hour job behind the counter at a bank in the back of beyond... after all, i could be doing great things and changing the course of humanity.
tis a shame you did not receive the education you so desperately need/ed dal.

what do you do now, as a matter of interest? have you assuaged your feelings of inadequacy by taking yourself back to education and getting an Important Job? or have you been forced into a life of cleaning or benefits by your inadequate teachers?

my apologies, that's bang out of order, and i don't really want to know. just assume i've got pmt or something, i've been spoiling for a fight all morning.

Well they're female dominated jobs aren't they Fio, so there's probably some misogyny at work too.

FioFio - not all of them. Generally it takes liquid assets of over a million & significant income (prob more than £100k) to make the living offshore thing work. I know enough people who earn at that kind of level, most of whom pay (more or less happily) their fair share.

Cory - you have summed up my feelings in respect of personal and parental responsiblity.
I was brought up in deprivation. Poverty, alcolhism and depression were all present in my family circumstances. Many of my school mates descended into crime, drug taking, homelessness, unwanted pregnancies etc. They had a rough start, yes, but they cannot blame anyone but themselves. They took no responsibility.
My Mother and Nan both taught me that in this life you can't blame anyone else. Not the system, not schools, or teachers, or your parents. You have to take responsiblity for your own life. You have to make good choices. If you have a good brain you have no excuse for bad choices.
To be honest this has stood me in far better stead in my life than my 'gift'.

"I agree with a lot that DAL says (though not the bits about whose contribution to society matters)... But at the same time, I just can't see myself, if my own dd went off the rails, blaming somebody else who "failed her"
Your DD is able to feed her own interests in her particular subject of strength. Some gifted kids can't, they need the help. Not all of them but some, definitely. Teachers can fail them. And do. Some may recover and take control. Some don't. And we as a society lose from those "don'ts"

I won't answer questions about my own IQ or income except to say I am satisfied with both - I left school at 16, returned to education as a mature student, earn well enough now, pay all my taxes in the UK and have no offshore accounts.

"DadAtLarge, is it not true that the top earners (100k + I magine you mean) within our country are also the best at dodging paying tax at all?"
Trust me, they're not. They may try to convert income to capital gains or do some other trivial tampering. But a large majority of them have no way out of the huge VAT returns every quarter, the increasing Business Rates, the extremely high National Insurance (12.8% employers' contributions) the Congestion Charge for their vans, Corporation Tax and a million other taxes. It's very few who go offshore and that avenue is being actively curtailed.

"an msc fits me for my next 15buck (£8) an hour job behind the counter at a bank in the back of beyond... after all, i could be doing great things and changing the course of humanity."
You've got the M.Sc so you've got the option. That's what I'd like gifted children to have - helped to reach their potential academically and then being, like you, in a position to choose space exploration or the seafood counter. I don't see what PMT has to do with the price of fish.

"Supermarkets are full of employees who have degrees and high IQs. I never understood the snobbery surrounding 'only' working in a shop/pub/bank etc"
It's not snobbery, it's common sense. While every shop assistant is doing a valuable job they are just not contributing as much to society (financially / non financially) as those who conceived the iPhone, invented a wonder prosthetic limb or founded Google.

And the practical result of me doing what I do and not working at a checkout is that I make a larger financial contribution to support those in society who need it. Would I rather there were more people in my position? Yes. Is that wrong? No. Treat the gifted like the DCSF demands and there'll be more future citizens in a position to choose to clean floors or aim higher (and we all stand to gain from their creativity, talent and money).

Yes, but it's the whole attitude that it would be all right for her to use other people or the unfairness of life as an excuse for not taking responsibility for her own life.

If you have read my previous posts, you will know that dd has a disability that means education (or indeed anything other than lying in bed) comes at a heavy cost in terms of pain. She has suffered discrimination at school and had teachers (including her old headteacher) openly tell her that they believe she is faking her disability. She has very good reasons for thinking that life is unfair on her and that most other children are better off.

But I am still tremendously uncomfortable with the idea of her using this as an excuse for not doing her best regardless of what other people are doing or what life is doing. Because in life, noone is going to be interested in excuses, are they?

Maybe it's because I see how dangerous it would be to her...and how tempting.

But you don't have to be gifted to conceive the iphone (and actually you have to be able to market it to), nor design a wonder limb nor found google.

I would think drive, ambition and determination all far more important for those activities than IQ.

As I said, once you get out of the learning disabled range, IQ does not determine your success in life.

Any child might have trouble feeding their own interests - why should gifted children be singled out to receive better attention. Your argument appears to be because they can achieve more. I don't think there's much evidence for that. Give someone average intelligence or above and the world is there ready and waiting for them.

And at some stage the gifted child has to be able to do it alone (as does everyone else). I don't think that can be taught, and if the child never gets that, then well it doesn't matter whether they're gifted, average or below average. The most intelligent person I know was publishing papers at 14, whilst attending a bog standard comprehensive. He didn't do well 'despite' his background. He did well because he found his passion in life very early on and was very motivated. He still works in the same field now. (He isn't a high earner though so you may not count his success).

"But you don't have to be gifted to conceive the iphone (and actually you have to be able to market it to), nor design a wonder limb nor found google."
No idea what you're talking about. My reference to those people was in response to a comment about snobbery and my claim was that they contribute more to society than your manicurist. You may have the best nails in the county but that is still my position. It's ridiculous to claim that the average shop assistant makes the same contribution to society as the average scientist, if that is what you're suggesting.

"IQ does not determine your success in life"
We've covered that already in the high-powered jobs a few posts back. IQ does influence who gets those jobs, however, it is not the sole determinate. Note that my support is also for those gifted with exceptional skills that are not IQ-based. If he's a genius with a football, give him the attention that he can combine with hard work to become another Beckham. Somehow our society seems to think that it's OK to make special provision for exceptional talent in sport but not for exceptional talent in the classroom. Weird!

"Why should gifted children be singled out to receive better attention. Your argument appears to be because they can achieve more. I don't think there's much evidence for that."
So if there's conclusive evidence you'll accept that they should be given "better attention"? I guessed not

Among those who oppose special provision for gifted children and oppose the provision the DCSF outlines, I wonder how many stand to gain in one way or another from that opposition?

I support all children reaching their potential. What's a gifted scheme going to produce? More lawyers? Nothing against lawyers ( am married to one) but I'm not sure they contribute much to society. The lowly ( in your eyes) ta's in ds1's sld pmld school have more impact on lives.

I do know someone who was identified as gifted at a young age and as he was in California was put on a gifted program. He used to go along to special classes at a university. Unfortunately he dropped out, spent a lot of time on drugs and had to spend many years trying to rebuild his life. My belief for any child is that you follow their lead and yes encourage them (I'm not as cynical about teachers as you - this seems to be the ethos at my sons schools). Deciding who is gifted and then imposing some programme on possibly reluctant kids is one potential route to mental health problems.

I always pity the children who carry around their parent's expectations. I have taught many 19 year olds who have identified themselves as disappointments to their parents . Bright kids but they didn't want to do what their parents wanted ( go to medical school in the main ) so nothing they did was good enough. I can only see an increase in
that sort of thing with g& t schemes. Having seen the fall out I don't think it's worth it. Yes encourage children to reach their goals. But fgs let it be their goals or someone us going to have to pick up the pieces.

I also think btw that if your child's profile is very different from the norm then you are a bit mad if you think that a school will be able to cater for their needs. We have this with ds1 who has such severe language issues that he has almost no language and learns in such odd ways that he needs an entirely individual approach yet is pretty bright in many ways . I do not expect his school to be able to meet all his needs. They do a bloody good job and we do extra at home. Sometimes I've done it but currently we employ postgraduates to come inevery day after school. If had a marge whizz performing far above his or her peers I'd do the same - postgrad maths student to come in a do interesting extension stuff - nothing wrong with that at all. I wouldn't expect th lea to be forming out if the education was suitable ( not the best remember) in other ways. We can take some responsibility as parents.

Marge = maths iPod wants me to type math I think

fembear i believe that you should engage with your kids, read together, encourage, nurture and motivate them as much as you can. Make your kids feel good about themselves, praise them and value them. Be proud of them and let them be themselves! I have kids of my own each one an individual in their own right. This is obviously an advantage for any child. I am proud of my kids achievements. I enjoy spending quality time with them. These are the best starting points. I provide them with lots of books, study guides, work books, flash cards, maths games etc etc. They have a good start.

and to put the cat amongst the piegeons I.Q. is not an accurate measure of intelligence either!!!!

That point has already been made repeatedly, lijaco. You don't even read your own threads properly?

"I've also worked on supermarket tills and been patronised by the same type of person who becomes delighted to meet you once they discover you're at Oxford." Oh yes - saw this for myself when some people who were parents at my academically selective private school were treating a cashier in the supermarket with faint contempt. Only for their daughter to catch up with them and say 'Hi Sophie' - cashier was in the 6th form. Parents were suddenly all over her.

On my way to the interview at that school, I asked the bus conductress which stop it was and turned out she'd been there herself.

As for intelligence, there is good evidence to say it is not fixed. A series of reputable, large-scale studies show even the brightest children who live in poverty drop down the scale if you measure them between toddlerhood and age 11. While below-average middle class children go up. And presumably go on to grab the opportunities that rightfully belong to the poorest.

(I certainly do worse on the non-verbal, non literacy elements of IQ tests now than I used to - judging by proper IQ tests at school and the sort of thing people on MN link to. Presumably because I'm a journalist, so use verbal/literacy skills every day, but don't have so much call for rotating objects in three dimensions.)

lljk true! I did skim read this last night when it was late! Not had time to read or catch up on this one properly!

'in this life you can't blame anyone else. Not the system, not schools, or teachers, or your parents. You have to take responsiblity for your own life. You have to make good choices. If you have a good brain you have no excuse for bad choices.
To be honest this has stood me in far better stead in my life than my 'gift'.

I think this is very true. Some people have it much easier than others but anyone with a gift or talent can make use of it.
I felt guilty as a single parent because I hate football and although I did lots with my DS I limited the time kicking a ball. He joined an under 6yrs team and practised and practised and people started telling me he was rather good.In the end I don't think he would have been better if he had a football mad dad who was out with him everyday. He wanted to do it and he got out and did it himself.

The assumptions made about supermarket check out staff always make me smile. I have a friend doing it now because she is writing a book-she can put in some hours and earn some money and still have time to write.
It is like the man who said, loudly and rudely, to his son-'see if you don't work hard you will end up like this'meaning the boy at the till. The boy at the till was able to smile and say 'you mean with 11 A* GCSEs, 4 A'levels and a place at Oxford!

I find it very odd that an adult would blame others years later. I've taught a number of mature students going for medical school and I know many people in their 40's + doing phd's. Very strange to blame teachers years after leaving school. Surely with maturity you learn how to go for your goals. Rather sad for an adult to blame others for their failures.

Also encouraging sports was mentioned. This doesn't happen at school for the most talented - they join football clubs etc as the poster above describes.