Early Learning of Numbers/Shapes/Puzzles, Late Talker: Please Help!

[BlueberryPancake]

Sorry this is a long post! I have so far posted on Special Needs but I'll give it a go here and see if I might get different suggestions.

DS2 is 2 years old and is non-verbal. He says three words (Yes, Mum, Woof). He is generally quiet but he hums a lot, hums the rhythm of songs, and rhythm of words/sentences.

I remember him being under one year old and being very interested in shapes and numbers. When reading a book to him, he would often point at the page numbers. He would point at number plates on cars. Door numbers. His favorite books have numbers in them. From 18 months, he has been able to point at the right number if we ask him 'where is 6', 'where is 2', etc. He can now identify many double digit numbers.

Same with shapes. He loves books with lots of shapes and can identify most of the common shapes, and I'm sure that if we'd push him he'd identify much more complex shapes. He is excellent at doing puzzles and shape sorters, mcuh better and faster than his 3 year old brother. His receptive communication is good, he understands quite complex instructions. He can concentrate on a toy for a very long time.

Apart from those special things, he plays with the same toys as other kids his age, socialises well, looks at people in the eyes, makes himself clear by pointing at things and using basic signs. He is a happy little thing.

I have seen various specialists on the NHS, including speech therapists, who all say that he is ok, developing normally, has normal behaviour.

BUT his is not speaking!!!

Has anyone else had this/heard about something like this?

Focus on the other suggestions for a few weeks and see how you go.

I agree that teaching him to read at the moment would be somewhat premature as his primary need is to develop some expressive language.

Have a look at the makaton website and see if they have any parent/carer training near you.

You can pick up some signs watching 'Something Special' on ceebeebies too.

The other thing to think about is nursery.

That is something recommended to help develop language.

It might be a bit soon at his age to get in to one but think about it.

He is still young and there is still lots of time for everything to fall in to place.

How is his attention and listening?

He started Pre-school (a nice free play pre-school where my oldest son is still going) two mornings a week. He settled very well for first few weeks, but his brother is there to look after him. He is apparently very happy there and plays well with other kids.

His attention is very good, except if he's tired obviously. He focuses on a long time on same toy, and might not notice if someone walks in a room. Hi is listening well most of the time and his understanding of voculabulary/instructions is good. He doesn't 'hover' between toys - he gets stuck in and plays with a toy for a while. Loves his train, tea set & food bits, lego, clocks, shape sorters, and cars so nothing unusual at all about his play/toys. He loves being around other kids also.

I wonder if you could ask for a referral to the Portage service on account of the speech delay. We had that, and I found it a reassuring presence and a good source of information. Just a thought.

You want to know ways to help?
We had this with DD before we joined a PROPER music class. Now age 7 you can't shut her up!
The theory is this..
Certain toddler activities including baby signing and 'shaky bashy' music classes by unqualified teachers CAN DELAY SPEACH!
Proper music classes can help hugely and certainly got us through the 'only a couple of words' stage. This is because a good music teacher helps the children to form sounds. Before they know it, they are joining in singing where they wouldn't have the confidence/ or maybe are too perfectionist, to say the words they end up singing them!
I cannot recommend this approach more, especially with children who are above average with many other things. Please also remember the professionals theory that children understand a word on average 6 months before they can say it!

Hi Karise. We go to a singing group (not regularely). I know of a proper music/singing group, I'll try to get on it, thanks for the advice, it makes a lot of sense. He loves music/rhythm.

I completely agree that music can help language development.

I disagree, however, that signing can delay it.

Many education professionals believe that children get lazy if they know the sign for a word instead of trying to say it- speech therapists agree too apparently!

I completely agree that music can help language development.

I disagree, however, that signing can delay it.

Ooh, sorry. Don't know where that second message came from.

I'm a ('retired') slt by the way! Not sure I know of any other slt's who would agree that encouraging signing is a bad idea.

Hi there you could try contacting a specialist school maybe with an autistic unit ect not because hes autistic but because they tend to have alot of children that dont talk and they may have a few suggestiond like social stories ect that may benefit him I.E if he wants a drink ect he has to put the pictures and words in order to explain what he wants this may not be appropriate with ur son but they may be able to point you in a direction as to which you can help him
hope this helps worth a try

I read with great interest the story of your son and I've felt the same anxiety you expressed. But I do have a positive story to share and a few odd suggestions.
My son is currently 26 months old. Before he turned two, I always worried he was too quiet. His receptive communication was unbelievable. It seemed from the time he was about nine months old, he understood everything we said, performed complicated tasks and had an amazing memory. He has always liked books, shapes, letters, puzzles. Though he said a few words, it wasn't until he was twenty months that he actually said momma. He hardly ever babbled. I'm a stay at home mom so I spend a lot of time reading and talking to him, but never baby talk. He also never really watched television. He just didn't seem interested. Oddly, my suggestions are just the opposite of what I had been doing.
First, I decided it was time for him to watch a little bit of t.v. after talking to my older sister about her daughter who is in her twenties (she was and is quite verbal and intelligent) and watched a lot television. I picked out a couple of programs that are educational and not filled with violence - Super Why and Sid the Science Kid on PBS. He loved the programs and he had an explosion of words within a couple of weeks.
Next, I started being a better listener to my son. Though I've been told I'm a good listener, I was doing a running monologue for him of our activities. I wasn't allowing for a dialogue between us. He was actually saying more things than I thought. I would also write the words down
to keep track of them.
Last, I started making all the sounds of the letters of the alphabet on a daily basis and tried to get him to repeat them. It was as if he finally thought "o.k., I can do that too!"
He now has a huge verbal vocabulary and is hardly ever quiet.

OK some development. I have received a signing booklet from Makaton and within a day or so, DS learned about 5 more signs, which is great. I also received and read the book 'The Einstein Syndrom' now I hate the title and in no way am I pretending that my DS is a genius. The book is an analysis of a number of children who develop more analytical abilities before they learn to speak, as if language comes second after logical thinking. Something to do with the way the brain develops. Some of these kids don't learn to speak before the age of 4, and many don't go through the 'babling' stages. Many have abilities/sensitivity to music, many excel at maths, most are very good at puzzles/shapes and most read early. Many of the children learn melodies easily, have the right intonations, can mimick sounds... just like DS. For example he can say 'baa baa' when seeing a sheep, but he can't say 'bear' even if he knows what it is. He can pronounce 'b' but doesn't try to say 'bye bye'.

It also suggests that most children whose ONLY problem is spoken language catch up. It also warns agains early diagnosis and early intervention (although I'm not sure of that). It has obviously happened that children who speak late are labelled wrongly and very early.

Anyway, the book was interesting but it is not gospel. I'm not sure if DS fits in those categories, but many of the examples presented in the book could have been written about DS. One of the examples I sware I could have written it myself.

Blueberry - bear in mind that the Einstein Syndrome book is American - in the UK it's not easy to get a DX of language delay/disorder or autism before 3, particularly if your child has some language/communication - the early supposedly wrong diagnoses are just not IMO likely to happen over here.

My DS was also very good at numbers, jigsaws etc at 2 - but his speech stagnated between 2 and 3 - so he only had single words at 3, and had receptive language delay. With help of private SALT and to a lesser extent NHS SALT, he is much much improved, and has been discharged by NHS SALT (although still some problems and disordered use of language IMO) Bear in mind that it's an extremely positive sign that your boy's receptive language is so good for his age.

Have you directly addressed with either private or NHS SALT whether your boy might have some sort of physical problem making speech sounds? I agree with the other posters that signing can be very helpful.

Physically, he can make many sounds, such as s, m, n, o, a (I am using the sounds for my older son, and DS2 is repeating them). He also says the sound g, as in green, which is a difficult sound. He has no problems swallowing, and he can drink with a straw and blow bubbles, which are all very good clues that there's nothing physically wrong with him - so says the SALT. Our local NHS SALT says that they don't have any interveniton for children under 2.5, and no 'strategic intervention' i.e. one-to-one before three years old. I've called private therapist and it costs £300 for initial assessment, that's not including any therapy. So we've pretty much decided to wait 3-6 months before pushing it further.

I will take on board the suggestion of signing, which I think he'll pick up quickly, and music, and he has started a little free-play pre school which I hope will help. I hope you don't mind me asking, how much does it cost you for private SALT? Maybe I just called a very expensive one!!!

It is great that he has picked up more signs so quickley and shows that he wants to communicate.

Does he use them spontaneously to communicate with you as opposed to just copying them?

Try to encourage the family to learn the signs too. Signing and talking to him at the same time will help him learn more signs.

Teach his nursery teachers the same signs so that they can understand what he is trying to tell them.

With regard to the sounds that he can copy. Can he copy 2-3 sounds together e.g. 'p t', 't k', 'p t k'?

Generally, a full private slt assessment would cost about that much. It should include formal and informal assessments (if appropriate), explanation of what the test results mean, written report and recommendations. It might include a more detailed suggestion of specific ideas/activities to work on. You may have to pay travel costs.

If you do decide to go down the private route, I would recommend finding a therapist who is specialised in child language disorder and dyspraxia.

I am up north, which probably makes things cheaper - 2 years ago (costs will of course go up in 2 years) the initial assessment cost £150, which included initial visit, nursery visit, and assessment at home visit, report and plan of work. Then further reviews were £50 per hour. I suspect that because DS was severely delayed and he was getting bog all NHS SALT that private SALT did her best to keep costs down (e.g. doing visits when in my area so as not to charge travel time).

The big work is IME the initial assessment - that once you have a starting point as to your lo's language skills and realistic goals to work on you can get a lot done yourself.

As a general point - I don't think that being bright at the non-verbal stuff will make much of a difference to how SALT would deal with a language delay. Sometimes the big ability at shapes/numbers etc with language delay could be a pointer for ASD - but you've been down that route, and socially/receptive languagely it sounds like the professionals have felt very positive about your boy

Have a look at this site.

It will give you slts in your area and their areas of speciality.

Call a few and see what they charge.

Ask questions about how much experience they have, what their areas of specialism they have and whjat they include in their initial assessment.

Hi Desparate, DS did a few signs spontaneously before - for car, food, bath, duck, ball and a few others. Now he has learned biscuit (he'll nag me with that one), and cake (mostly from Mr Tumble this morning) and sit, stand up, and finished but has not done them spontaneously yet, I'm sure it will take a couple of days. It's funny because we've been watching Mr Tumble for a long time but he never tried to imitate the signing, and this morning his little hands were going all over the place as he was trying to do the signs. I think he has realised they actually mean something.

and to your other question, no he can't do two consonate sounds together. But on the positive side he is much more 'vocal' now than he was only a few weeks ago - he roars, shouts, screams, imitates more animal and car noises, etc. So we focus on these for now, try to encourage him just to make noise with his voice.

TotalChaos, we haven't ruled out Asperger syndrome, but as I understand it late talking isn't a characteristic of asperger am I right? As for ASD, it is so hard to diagnose but we are not concerned about it so much as his social skills are good.

Today, one of my friends (she is a very good pedeatrician) came over to visit us with her gorgeous little girl who is the same age as DS. They were holding hands, and hugging, DS is smitten. He was trying so hard to speak to her. When I asked him "is Bella your girlfriend?" he turned around and gave her a kiss. It was the sweetest thing.

I understand your anxiety but I think you are worrying far too early tbh

My dd has never been quick to learn to say anything - had a similar vocab as you ds at 2. Also showed little interest in learning new words

She is almost 5 now - and a very shy child much of the time

I would keep an eye on your ds and try not to fuss - the more attention you draw to it the more he is less likely to talk imho - if there are any issues that need help - they will show themselves in a year or so

ATM - by seeking attention about this you are coming across as someone who wants there to be a problem, sorry

Your ds is only 2, health visitors etc say he is developing normally because he is - he is clearly very good at his numbers and shapes, but not talking - not saying bye bye at 2 isnt essential!

'more' is a very powerful word to learn to say/sign.

It can be used in sooo many situations.

''more biscuits''

yurtgirl - think you are being a bit hard on OP - sometimes parents just know something isn't quite right, and can see that the toddler language explosion just isn't happening -as parent to a child who had a DX of severe language delay at 3 - it's so easy for kids to slip through the net pre-3 - early intervention with speech/language will not be remotely harmful even if it happily proves to be unnecessary. The HV's wait and see approach with my DS lost my DS at least 9 months of help with communication.

blueberry - yes, you are correct that Aspergers is usually NOT associated with language delay.

TC - others said similar much earlier in the thread, I was only agreeing really

Blueberry. Sorry if I did sound harsh, I do understand how you feel - I have a 7yo with aspergers and a 4yo late talker/selective mute/very shy
But children do all develop at their own rates - dd who previously could only say a few words (at 2/1/2) now makes up her own songs
Try not to worry

The basic theory of the Einstein Syndrome book sounds persuasive - I have a daughter whose language is quite clearly on the very top, right on the surface, of her brain: she makes sense right away if you wake her in the middle of the night.

Then my son - analytical, logical, very mathematical, as I said before: to get what he means is like decoding a cryptic crossword. He has these occasional flashes of coherence where we all get excited that he's getting the hang of making sense, but then the next minute he's back to the tangles and lateral leaps (with words missed out or pronounced the way they're spelt, not said). However, what he has to say is so interesting that it makes all the effort worthwhile.

I am sure that will be the same for you in time Blueberry