Early Learning of Numbers/Shapes/Puzzles, Late Talker: Please Help!

[BlueberryPancake]

Sorry this is a long post! I have so far posted on Special Needs but I'll give it a go here and see if I might get different suggestions.

DS2 is 2 years old and is non-verbal. He says three words (Yes, Mum, Woof). He is generally quiet but he hums a lot, hums the rhythm of songs, and rhythm of words/sentences.

I remember him being under one year old and being very interested in shapes and numbers. When reading a book to him, he would often point at the page numbers. He would point at number plates on cars. Door numbers. His favorite books have numbers in them. From 18 months, he has been able to point at the right number if we ask him 'where is 6', 'where is 2', etc. He can now identify many double digit numbers.

Same with shapes. He loves books with lots of shapes and can identify most of the common shapes, and I'm sure that if we'd push him he'd identify much more complex shapes. He is excellent at doing puzzles and shape sorters, mcuh better and faster than his 3 year old brother. His receptive communication is good, he understands quite complex instructions. He can concentrate on a toy for a very long time.

Apart from those special things, he plays with the same toys as other kids his age, socialises well, looks at people in the eyes, makes himself clear by pointing at things and using basic signs. He is a happy little thing.

I have seen various specialists on the NHS, including speech therapists, who all say that he is ok, developing normally, has normal behaviour.

BUT his is not speaking!!!

Has anyone else had this/heard about something like this?

well, all children do things at different rates. sounds like he is maybe so busy developing the numbers/shapes thing that he has less time to focus on the actual talking.
am sure he'll even out eventually

Relax - 2 is still very young. My DD3 had very few words at 2 (a few more than yours, but way less than her older sisters did at her age). She also got colour sorting and matching very quickly, and is absolutely incredible at puzzles. She also walked very young. She's just different to her sisters, who are also all different to eachother in different ways.

You've had him checked up - his comprehension's clearly brilliant. I wonder why you are still worried? Is he making speech sounds? Like can he babble etc.? Is he improving (however slowly)? If so, he's probably just a late talker.

Leave him six months and then get him checked again if he's still not talking.

I don't want to sound rude but I KNOW that all children do things at different rates.

I'm worried because he is not speaking and would like to help him the best I can to be able to express himself.

I would like advice from people who might have had or experienced a similar situation - high interest in logical stuff but not in expressive communications.

Wouldn't you be worried if you had a two year old who could not, and would not even attempt to say simple things like milk, or bye bye? He doesn't even try to imitate sounds.

I'm a bit tired of people telling me not to be worried. I don't know a single parent out there who wouldn't be worried in our situation.

I'm looking for people with similar experience. I'm not looking for reassurance or for yet again another person telling me that everything will be fine. I'm sure there's someone out there who's had a similar experience. Thanks

sounds to me like you want there to be a problem.

You do sound rude, sorry.

I have just told you that I have a late talker with a high interest in logical things. She's now talking fine - still a bit delayed compared to her older sisters, but she's learning, and that's the point.

My ds didn't have any words until nearly 20 months. By his second birthday he had more words than your ds but he was no-where near as good as his big sister. Like your ds, he had good receptive language, is great at puzzles etc.

I was a bit concerned and spoke and to a SALT who was running a drop in session at a playgroup. Her view was that sometimes in situations where kids obviously have good understanding of language and seem "bright" in other ways, parents will use complicated language when talking to them. So instead of just saying something like "Look, bus", they end up using really quite complex language and long sentences e.g. "Oh look, there's a big red bus. It's going really fast and there are lots of people getting on and off". Consequently, these kids don't have a really simple language "model" to copy at the really early stages of learning to speak.

Now, obviously I have no idea if this is the case for your ds. In fact, I have no idea if this was the case for my ds! However, it did make me stop and think and I deliberately simplified how I spoke to my ds. At 2 1/2 my ds now has an extensive vocabulary, is putting up to 7 words together and is giving a running commentary on the world.

Have people responded on your SN thread?

Anyway, something I probably in hindsight would have done with my ds - whose speech wasn't late, exactly, but his communication - so, his involvement in the give & take of conversation - was definitely late; and his speech was, and is still (he's 10) a bit disordered, and not very clearly articulated - is signing. I believe research has shown that it absolutely doesn't hinder the development of speech (as you might think it possibly could) but it gives a child for whom forming words is for whatever reason not as easy as for others an alternative easier pathway - and then speech seems to come more easily. I'm only giving you the benefit of my hindsight.

My ds was very logical, is a maths whizz now, and - like yours - sang and still sings, all the time.

You say he points to things, yes? IIRC this is a very good sign with regards to communication skills.

It is not that unusual for 2yo to have limited vocab. But yes, I guess I would be worried a ^bit. But you have seen the specialists who say that he is within the normal parameters. I am not sure what else can be advised at this time. It is still normal for some children to not speak at this age.

Does he have any sounds at all?

OK yea, I want my son not to be able to tell me what he wants to eat. That makes sense.

We have seen a speech therapist on the NHS on two occasions, but at no time was DS' unusual 'knowledge' was considered. No strategy was offered to help his speech, just further assessments.

0I spoke to a private and very expensive speech therapist (we can't afford it) who immediatly flagged up the number/shape thing, and asked me if he had had a full development assessment by a team of peadiatricians, and when I said that his referal was rejected she immediatly asked me to push for another referal.

He has never tried to imitate sounds, except for the word yes which he's been saying since he was 1. Mum he started saying last month, and woof came somehow naturally. He has never said, or tried to say dad, or dada, or da.

You are being really rude, and I don't know why. What are you hoping people will say to you?

It really does sound like you want someone to say that there probably is something wrong with your son?

Push for more expert assessment if you don't trust what you've already had.

I'm hiding this thread now - can't be bothered with reading any more rude responses!

DW did worry about DS who was very late to start talking (2+) though he was good at numbers. He's going to be 7 soon and I do wish he'd shut up sometimes.

Oh, yes, he's even better at numbers now.

hmm so what I can gather so far is that you don't believe the health professionals who have told you not to worry;

so you've come on here for advice, which has been forthcoming, but you don't believe us either.

you know what? if you're THAT convinced something is wrong with your son despite EVERYONE telling you they think otherwise then spend some money getting him assessed privately.

Yes, Bink, I now speak to him in three-word sentences which is strange, because I know that he can understand complex sentences. But if I undstand well he has a better chance of repeating words/sentences if they are short and very clear. I now feel a bit stupid in shops and things saying things like 'Billy Want Babana' or 'Look Red Bus'!

I have stopped asking him questions. I let him lead play, and point and I tell him what things are.

Yes many people gave me insights, but mostly from their experience with children who had multiple dissabilities, or diagnosed syndroms and speech is one of their problems. We now have a support thread for late talkers.

Somethimes, Thisisyesterday, you have to trust your instincts. I feel that something is different - not bad, just different - about the way DS is developing. If he would have made a little bit of progress within the last 6 months I wouldn't worry. If he'd say more or less 10 words I wouldn't worry. If he even try to say a few words, I'd be reassured. But is isn't trying and I don't feel that I don't know how to help him 'come out'.

Blueberry, I can see similarities between your DS and my DD, 19 months. I DON´T think it´s something to be worried about, not for the moment.

Various specialists have told you that your DSs behaviour is normal, that it IS nothing to worry about. The problem seems to lie with your expectations of your son, rather than with your seemingly intelligent little boy. Let him be, he will talk when he´s ready!

(I think it was Neolara - not me - who suggested the short sentences. I suggested signing ... have you considered that?)

He didn't 'get' signing when he was younger, he'd look at me funny but now he has started doing it 'instinctively' for things like car (holding his hands in front of him and turning the wheel) and train, and pig (making a pig nose) so I took this as a clue that he was ready, and he signs a few words such as cup, hungry, and thank you. It helps him communciate with us and with his big brother.

There was a huge discrepancy between my DS's (mental) ability and his speech at your DS's age. A developmental paediatrician finally picked this up when he turned 5 and he was dx with a speech disorder. He's 7 now and has just been dx with dyspraxia because, again, there is a huge discrepancy between his mental ability (age 13+) and physical ability (age 5 in some areas). I'd say it's the discrepancy between your DS's ability and his lack of speech that is worrying you and I would go with your instincts and get a referral to a developmental paediatrician.

Like Bink, I am merely giving you the benefit of my hindsight.

Is it because his brother talks for him, passes him things, generally looks after him? sometimes children don't need to talk because the sibling does it for them? Just a thought.

The sibling situation is very true, DS1 is a chatterbox and 'demands' a lot of attention in terms of talking. But he is also trying to 'show' his little brother to 'speak', well to roar like a lion or to make car noises etc. They play very well together. So in another prespective, it should help DS2 to make more noises.

Castlesintheair, although it is very hard to diagnose dyspraxia in a toddler, many of the questions regarding DS2 were about his general physical abilities. He can eat well, move his mouth well, jump, hold a pen, kick a ball, etc. Yes it is the discrepancy that worries me, and more specifically I believe that DS' interest in numbers and shapes (and his logical mind) is giving us a 'clue' as to why he is not speaking, and that he is learning in a different way. If I'd know how/why then I'd be able to find a way to help him speak. My mother in law says it looks like there's a 'broken connection' somewhere that stops him from being able to say the words. He hums them, just by making the n sound, with the right rhyth and intonation, but he is not 'forming' the sounds.

I will do more signing with him and hope that he will pick this up (and his bb).

I think it's entirely understandable to be a bit concerned & I don't see why people are having a go at you.

I was going to suggest signing, but see bink got there first.

There is a physical maturation that has to occur before children can articulate sounds I believe (something to do with a mechanism that prevents very young babies choking also prevents them speaking) and there must be a range of ages when that maturation occurs, so it maybe that he's very late in that happening? Or perhaps his brain just hasn't got to grips with controlling the right muscles yet as he's too busy learning other stuff. I would see the humming thing as very positive & would expect the rest to follow in time & with encouragement, but of course you will be a bit concerned until it does.

with dyslexia / dyspraxia there is actually a kind of miswiring within the brain so to speak. So this is possible but a little young to diagnose as yet. Being aware of this is good. Also dyslexia / dyspraxia are usually highly intelligent but do not always reflect this in attainment.

Signing words counts as "words" he can "say", OP. So he can say more than the mere 3 words you mentioned in OP.

All my 4dc were late talkers. DS2 (now 5yo) is the worst so far, has quite obvious speech delay, I still struggle to understand him quite often, & he is big on patterns/puzzles/maths, too.

If OP's DS were mine I would be a little worried. I suppose a reasonable strategy would be to review with HV his progress every 6 months, he's too young to do much else still.

The picture you paint of your son is puzzling.

I would continue to teach him more signs. Makaton signs are good. Each sign repesents one word and they can be combined to say phrases. Try to teach him signs that are meaningful for him and a range of nouns as well as verbs.

Even if his expressive language does take off, this will not hinder him.

Encouraging him to try to use 'non-words' is also good e.g. animal sounds, car sounds, etc.

Can he copy you when you make individual sounds e.g. 's', 'm', 'p', 'k'?

Choose a couple of words to focus on during a week (even 2 weeks) e.g. 'stop' 'go'. Play lots of games during the week that give him the opportunuty to hear and say the words- driving cars on a play mat, build a track, tickling, ride-ons.

Desparate, it's a good point you are making. He can make individual sounds for s, m, n, g, and some other consonates as he is very interested in letters and will point at them and ask for the sound, and imitate it. So he says 'b' but not 'bye bye'. He learned the sounds through books with a for apple, b for ball, etc and letters in the bath, but he doesn't point at letters if they are part of a word.

He can recognises a few letters and make the sound when he is not prompted, for the letters s, o, m, g and a couple more I think. Again my mother in law (I am very close to her) thinks that I should 'teach' him to read but I am not keen on the idea.