Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Gifted and talented

Talk to other parents about parenting a gifted child on this forum.

Original poster

Is G&T just spin?

74 replies

ginnyweeze · 20/11/2007 10:38

Has anyone wondered why the Government has a G&T policy?

I've no doubt some children are gifted. My DS is one of them - the education system never 'fitted' him and from an early age he has dreamed in classes that are doing work he has grasped long ago.

But what's the point of the G&T register? He's on it and gets absolutely nothing as a result. No extra classes, extension work, nothing. All it means is he can go to the library and pick any book he wants instead of being given a book by the teacher.

Up to now I've just let this go on, hoping he would be OK, and he has done well. Now, suddenly, aged eight, his results at school have nosedived - from a couple of years ahead back to Infant School level. Why? He doesn't know and I'm not sure but I suspect he's not challenged. Is the teacher bothered? No. The answer is he's meant to do the same old boring stuff year after year and needs to apply himself to that.

What will the G&T programme do about it? Nowt. It's just a fantasy. Other parents may scoff that the 'so-called gifted child' is now dropping back. But would you enjoy working in a class with people struggling to grasp concepts you got straight away? This is what he faces and the G&T agenda is a smokescreen,

OP posts:
vacua · 20/11/2007 10:58

I don't know, it didn't do much for us either. In fact it really stressed my middle daughter out and gave her one more ideal to try to maintain.

Original poster
ginnyweeze · 20/11/2007 11:03

Exactly. Does it do anything for anyone?

OP posts:
seeker · 20/11/2007 11:12

I don't deny that there are some incredibly gifted (that is, incredibly academically bright) and talented (that is, really incredibly good at doing something) children in the country. However,I do not believe that 10% or even 5% of children in the country fit this category. For example, my dd got 122 as a mean score in her year 7 SATS. If I understand the system, this would put her just into the g and t category at most high schools. But she's at a grammar school, so she isn't anywhere near the top 10%, never mind 5%. I think this highlights how bonkers the whole system is!

BTW - do you think we can keep this thread interesting and informative and a proper discussion? I'd love to talk about this issue, but I never get the chance because people start shouting at each other! And in this spirit, I withdraw "bonkers"and insert "ill thought out"

vacua · 20/11/2007 11:13

my nephew seemed to benefit from it, he wasn't engaging properly in class or completing course work but it gave him a boost - not sure exactly what form the support took but he was the bright naughty type. he got I think 10 or 12 gcses, all As and A*s when at one point he wouldn't have been eligible to be entered for the exams and is really happy now in upper 6th and enthusiastic about his future. perhaps it works well for the disaffected able youth?

vacua · 20/11/2007 11:21

I do think that whatever support he was offered could have been delivered without the G&T framework and should be available to any pupil who develops problems with school work

TheFairyOnTopOfTheTree · 20/11/2007 11:23

I agree that as the top 10% varies so much from school to school, it is hard to see many benefits of such labels. However, it is working really well for my DD as she has a specific IEP which is stretching her and keeping her interested, and although she is pleased to be doing slightly different work within the class, she is still 'in' with her peers, which I also think is critical. She has no idea of her G&T label, which is how it should be.
Pupils in all classes already know who does well in class and who doesn't, without it being said, so it doesn't need spelling out.
So ginnyweeze, your school G&T coodinator should be providing an IEP, which once implemented, will cater for any special needs. BTW there is a national dip in year3 pupils results,as the work ethic changes from play based to a more academic structure, so hopefully that is what has happened to your child.

slalomsuki · 20/11/2007 11:25

I am not a big fan of G & T since it is unfair to say that it is the top 10%. DS1 is in a class that the school has labeled exceptional and in a normal class they would all be in G & T....the heads words and not mine but she has had to nominate juts 10% for this and DS1 along with most of his peers are not there. He is doing KS2 Maths and Reading but he is in year 2.
DS2 is in a normal class but has been given the G & T tag and gets the benefits. He is no worse than DS1 but others in his class are not of the same standard against the benchmarks.

seeker · 20/11/2007 11:36

That's the question, slalomsuki, what "benfits"?

slalomsuki · 20/11/2007 11:46

DS2 is getting pushed at maths and set additional homework as part of it. It is really him and a girl in his class who are doing this and he has drawn away from the rest even at this early stage. I think the school is using it as a means of identifying bright kids early with the view to getting them in to decent secondary schools

What annoys me about it is that DS1 was just as capable at the same age but didn't get pushed because of the label

Original poster
ginnyweeze · 20/11/2007 11:52

A push would be nice!

DS had an IEP in Infants, although it didn't amount to moren than 'read with expression.' Since he got to Juniors he's had nothing...result.. now in y4 he's fallen way back in his work.

OP posts:
snorkle · 20/11/2007 11:53

I'm more or less an outside observer since the dc's private school doesn't 'do' G&T (& they may not have qualified even if it did), but from what people have posted on here it seems that the benefits range from nothing to quite a bit depending where you are. Piffle and Roisin both have dcs that have benefited to some degree but if you are somewhere that doesn't do anything extra then the scheme is pointless.

Also, 10% is probably too wide a net. As all children are different some kids may well need more help than others (and not necessarily just based on IQ). Some bright kids learn independently better, while others deliberately hide their abilities to try and fit in - the latter group might be harder to identify but probably have more need. I like the idea of a pot of money that can be used for any child that needs it, but there will still be winners and losers - you can bet the funding would go to those with the pushiest parents first. No ideal solutions really.

TheFairyOnTopOfTheTree · 20/11/2007 11:55

I would probably make an appointment with the coodinator at your school to voice your concerns, not to be pushy, but to retain interest.
Good luck.

snorkle · 20/11/2007 11:57

slalomski, wouldn't your ds1 have been pushed more in regular class if his whole class was ahead? You may find as all his peers were bright too he was progressing at a faster pace than the rest of your ds2's class are, but because there was not overt differentiation you didn't notice (should have happened in an ideal world from what you have said).

Piffle · 20/11/2007 14:16

Hi Ginny

Throughout primary school we faced pretty much what you describe, in one of ds1's schools G+T kds were actively discouraged...

Once we moved into a 11+ county in order to get ds1 into a top grammar school, things were much better
Now 13 and at yr 9 in grammar his day to day stuff is much more challenging, still he breezes through but not bored as he was when younger

The G+t has been scrapped now well NAGTY has and YGT(young Gifted and Talented) is the Gov'ts version of NAGTY -- needless to say, they are late setting it up
There are no courses available atm...

FWIW we kept ds1 mentally agile byt letting him do kumon maths, kids french classes and drama school. plus did extra stuff with him at home , plus he has travelled a lot...

I place no faith in the G+T system at primary level and that extends down to those kids that are more able as well - nothing generally... stagnation infact

Joy of Joys have just been told that DD (5 and some visual SN) is about to be identified as G+T - I just said
Oh ok then, teacher thought I was mad, but when I asked what does that mean, she had few answers....
so pointless yes indeed

CharlesandEddie · 20/11/2007 14:27

well said slalomsuki - it's plain silly in my opinion and no one seems to know what the 'lable' actually means
I am trying to ignore what they say about my kids and just get on with doing the best for them
my ds's school is very high achieving and he has been picked out for various extra's - i dont know what they mean but he mutters g & t ..
my ds 2 was chosen to go and do a dance course as part of the g and t scheme -
we were told dd is 'gifted' in english - i am not telling her as not to sure it means anything and also think it may encourage her to coast if she thinks she is so far ahead

its a silly label and sould be abolished for something that actually means something

Blandmum · 20/11/2007 14:29

I was thinking about this in the car earlier today.

I was in the top set for maths in secondary school, so I was in the top 10%. (big year, big school) So I would be listed as G and T for maths, had they gone in for that sort of thing.

I still count on my fingers!

And have to write down my times tables!

CharlesandEddie · 20/11/2007 20:39

lol mb!

throckenholt · 21/11/2007 07:36

if it is any consolation he will probably pick right back up again when something sparks his interest.

I was in a small primary school where the top 2 years were in the same class - I got through the material for 2 years in my first year in the class - then caused the teacher all sorts of problems by telling the others the answers to everything (he had to put me on my own ). He struggled to keep me occupied for the second year. But once I got to senior school I never really had the same problem - maybe because it was a grammar school and everyone was at a similar level.

dayofftomorrow · 21/11/2007 09:24

Does seem to depend on the teacher appointed to be gifted and talented coordinator. Some see it as the short straw, compile the register and that's it job done. Others feel it is really important and pass on the ideas, courses and material to class teachers and do something. DD's school does very little (kids sent to read in the corner while rest of class doing the phonics).
We have friend who is keen G & T coordinator in a different school who passes on details of YGT courses which we pass on to DD's friends

Ps piffle there are some courses going on in London atm for year 5 and 6 and will be some more after christmas

hotcrossbunny · 21/11/2007 09:38

It just seems such a contrived idea with no thought behind it. Some year groups would struggle to find 10% g and t others there would be more than that...there seems to be no flexibility to make a decision based on true ability rather than fitting a set number into a box for the funding (I assume there is extra funding??!)

My feeling is that a good teacher would know who were his/her most able and stretch them accordingly and also who needed extra support and deal with that too. Its what we were trained to do...differentiate! From what I've read here, it would suggest that a lot depends on the individual teachers interest and ability. I would be asking the school to pull their finger out, whether my dd was g and t or not.

seeker · 21/11/2007 09:56

Does anyone know if there is any study of the number of children on the g and t register who are also getting free school meals?

snorkle · 21/11/2007 11:00

ooh interesting question seeker. I just googled it and found [http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070205/text/70205w0003.htm this]] which if you scroll down gives the figures for Leicestershire and Leicester. It's about half what you'd expect if G&T ness was uniformly distributed across everyone (regardless of free meal status).

snorkle · 21/11/2007 11:01

I'll just try that link again..

here

seeker · 21/11/2007 11:19

Wow, snorkle - well done. Good old Hansard! I remember in a previous life having to go into the bowels of the House to check the Hansard account for my Department. Took me back, that did!

Anyway - interesting if not particularly surprising data. About the same, I think as the nubmer of children on free school meals at Grammar schools.

Not sure where that leaves me, except with a vague feeling of unease and a sense that "unto him that hath, more shall be given......"

snorkle · 21/11/2007 11:22

yeah, me too (uneasy that is). The haves always seem to be better at working the systemthan the have nots. What's particularly worrying here though is that the G&T scheme is supposed to particulary (but not exclusively of course) target deprived areas.