Is G&T just spin?

[ginnyweeze]

Has anyone wondered why the Government has a G&T policy?

I've no doubt some children are gifted. My DS is one of them - the education system never 'fitted' him and from an early age he has dreamed in classes that are doing work he has grasped long ago.

But what's the point of the G&T register? He's on it and gets absolutely nothing as a result. No extra classes, extension work, nothing. All it means is he can go to the library and pick any book he wants instead of being given a book by the teacher.

Up to now I've just let this go on, hoping he would be OK, and he has done well. Now, suddenly, aged eight, his results at school have nosedived - from a couple of years ahead back to Infant School level. Why? He doesn't know and I'm not sure but I suspect he's not challenged. Is the teacher bothered? No. The answer is he's meant to do the same old boring stuff year after year and needs to apply himself to that.

What will the G&T programme do about it? Nowt. It's just a fantasy. Other parents may scoff that the 'so-called gifted child' is now dropping back. But would you enjoy working in a class with people struggling to grasp concepts you got straight away? This is what he faces and the G&T agenda is a smokescreen,

at targetting G+T
Do you mean they are really working hard to ensure that G+T kids from deprived areas are found out about...
Hate to think they'd pop a few on just to tick the boxes for some quota check...

Definitely is a spin. We 'must' have 10% of our kids on the G&T register. They will be split into the following categories - def G&T, probably G&T and possibly G&T. A child can be G&T in any subject. Child may be G&T one year and not the next. Why?? Because we have to give as many kids as poss the opportunity to be on the register.

Aboslutely pointless - my department spent an hour one day after school this week dsicussing who should be on the register for our subject this year.

Just like school league tables it is another trick to try and keep middle class families happy.

targeting G&T: As far as I'm aware (which isn't much - so those in the know feel free to correct me) schools in more deprived areas are given more resources to 'do' G&T than others and places on some G&T courses are reserved for so called 'deprived' children.

Personally, I'd like to think they 'pop' a few kids who've had little 'extra' help in life but who they think have potential on the list over little Jocasta whose mother badgers the school to be on the list but whose already had lots of coaching, & extra curricula stuff & lots of books at home etc.

why cna it not just be achievement over and above the normal standard

pretty sure that's how my ds1 got on it
consistently well above average on all subjects...
sounds simple enough

Yes, but I don't think there ever should have been any doubt for your child piffle . That said, you as a caring and enlightened mother have made sure he's had plenty of opportunity (plenty of books, kumon etc) - don't you think it would be fair for a child that hasn't had all that to have a slightly lower bar? Actually I like to think that the 10% is so wide so as to include the truely gifted but unencouraged, but that still means it's also including more of the 'coached' children.

well yes maybe but he only got those opportunities because it was obvious he neded them
I was below the poverty line, working mother on shit wages andds1 was in a failing school - you make do with what you've got...
But absolutely agree that care should be taken when seeking talent from a less likely school environment.

I think that "consistently above average in all subjects" could and should be easily catered for in an ordinary primary school class room. It's the really exceptional children thay may possibly need a bit of extra support

ahhh seeker but now he is exceptional you see... he was consistently well above average while being taught badly in a poor school...
Now he is working years above and is achieving the highest possible levels for his age...
the limits are placed by the schools... there is no catering for it and there are a couple of boys at his school similarly placed.

which is exactly why the scheme needs to be broad enough to cover those who are 'only' consistently above average in all subjects rather than overtly gifted and also encourage schools that might lose gifted kids behind poor teaching. The trouble is you then get lots of kids who are genuinely 'consistently above average' on the scheme as well and lots of ambitious parents pushing to get their bright kids onto the scheme too.

snorkle, you seem to be implying that there is some amazing provision out there for G&T that pushy parents will really consider worth pushing their children to get into. I haven't seen anything like that near me. DS2 and DS3 get occasional invitations to holiday workshops, and the borough does run some rather more serious Maths sessions for one term in Year 5, but that's about it really.

My concern with the G&T scheme is that it might discourage schools from trying to meet children's needs in the actual lessons, if they consider the top 10% has access to a special scheme (never mind if it is at weekends and inaccessible for reasons of logistics or cost...).

exactly hallgerda... exactly...
what have we gained... one day of orienteering for G+T students... way hay...

Luckily ds1's school makes its own provision for extension work, thank god their art teacher is so committed that she is an absolute inspiration. Lucky that the science teacher devotes his life to teaching and nurturing the kids who want to progress faster...

not down to G+T or the label, down to an excellent highly academic school that is fortunate enough to be able to offer the support.

That's why we took the decision to move 250 miles north to come here...
Eff all to do with NAGTY or whatever they call themselves now...

Piffle - how many were never seen again? Did that lead to better funding for the survivors?

(Question expecting the answer no)

What do free school meals have to do with a gifted register that is meant to be based purely on merit??

Has anyone noticed that intelligence is inherited, just as much as hair or eye colour? Of course it doesn't always work out as you would expect as we are all a jumble of genes etc.

But it might follow that brighter kids are likely to have brighter parents who may be working and not need free meals!

I know it doesn't always work like that. There are lots of dumb bullies in high-paid jobs (one was my boss) and plenty of bright parents who missed out on opportunities in life.

I don't deny there are bright children from poor homes. But why should parents' wealth be any way of judging academic ability?

This is meant to be an academic register - not social engineering.

you know the answer hallgerda
So your kids get a label telling him he's damned clever...
cos obviously as his parents, we had no bloody clue

Of course it's genetic, ds1 inherited all his brains from me - more like sucked mine you, I've been a halfwit since he was born...

DS1 was entitled to free school meals as a 5-7 yr old, but I never took them up, as I provided him with a packed lunch as they were serving slop. Is it relevant? Who knows... plenty of very smart parents are bloody hard up, this site is evidence of that.

I don't think it is necesssary to lower the bar for bright kids who just happen to come from a working class or what you all tend to refer to
as poor homes! How patronising!
Of course children from less wealthy backgrounds(whether their parents are working or not)need extra help to be weeded out as they need more help in attaining places in good secondary schools- a lot of middle class parents know how to work the system re:scholarships or being able to afford to move to a better area for good schools.
Honestly, this middle class hysteria when you are all worried that working class kids might get the same or more opportunities than your little ones- you obviously think that yours deserve it more because you are more sophisticated or something. GRRRRR. Makes me very cross.

Entitlement to free school meals is a pretty fair measure of disadvantage in this country.

If children who receive free school meals are not represented on g and t programmes in roughly the same proportion as they are in the wider school population, then that is a pretty good indicator that there is something as well as pure ability affecting access to the programmes.

For example, something like 16% of children in my dd's primary school were on free school meals. Just over 1% of the children in her grammar school are. Cause for thought.

sorry missed the middle class hysteria manchita?
Where was it exactly?

So my child's bright and I work. So does my husband (how old fashioned). We don't claim any tax credits etc. No free meals.

Does that mean our child's not as bright as a 'working' class child? Or even the child of unemployed parents (the not-working classes).

Less working class hysteria, please!

Ah Hallgerda, sorry it came over like that. I'm aware that the provision is generally poor to non-existant. The (actually only a couple, so not even statistically relevent) people I've known that have been keen to get their children onto 'the list' have done it mainly not for the provision itself but for a percieved future advantage in university admissions and for kudos.

Why does the fact you both work and don't claim any benefits make you middle class?

ginnyweeze, in answer to your original questions, my DSs do get extra maths on a regular basis (which both enjoy) and benefit from various other one-off initiatives, and I do also generally find that their class teachers try to give them work that stretches them. (We had a bit of a wobble with DS1 earlier this term but it turned out that it was only one teacher who was giving boring lessons, and he only has this teacher for one morning a week, so it was no biggie).

I am not quite sure I follow why you are agitated about "social engineering", though.

I just don't understand how parents' incomes have anything to do with ability at school - but the free school meals argument suggests other people think it does. Why is this country so hung-up on so-called class? I work and I've been to uni so apparently that makes me middle class. If I didn't work and had few qualifications...I'd be seen as working class?????

Anyway, I've seen no sign of a gifted programme for my child, who in the past excelled but is now underachieving and daydreaming in class. So I'm feeling rather bitter about it all at the moment.

Well, of course parental income doesn't have anything to do with innate intelligence/ability. But I think there have been studies which indicate that even by the age they start school, children from poorer backgrounds are already at a disadvantage educationally.

I haven't ploughed through the whole of the thread so I apologise if this is way off track.

In the meantime, though, if your DS is not being stretched at school then I think you really have to talk to the school, and if they won't/don't take your concerns seriously, then consider moving him.

there was no free school meals argument - it was merely a statisitical observation.

What Ginny says reflects what many bright and able kids have at school - not enough resources to extend the most able kids.
I'm also saying getting labelled G+T rarely changes that.