Starting school early

[SkedaddIe]

I hope this doesn't come across presumptuous.

We are ttc our 2nd and want a summer child rather than an autumn child so that they start school younger but covid and post pill amenorrhea has really disrupted our plans. We ideally wanted a smaller gap between our children so they could bond and learn from and with each other.

Is it very difficult (in England) to start early for autumn children? And how would we organise it?

Dd 4 loves school and we really appreciated that the professionals are better at educating then we are! For example we felt a little bit bad that dd started reading at 2 by memorising words rather than being taught phonics and blending.

There aren't any good private schools near us but lots of good state primary schools and a very decent spread of grammar schools.

I think that our next child will also very likely be well above average at least and would benefit from the birth date acceleration just as my dd seems to. Plus 1 or 2 years acceleration feels to me like it is a good balance between academic and social development for bright children.

@NoHunGosh

Question. How would starting early benefit them as an adult? 'Whoop whoop. I started and finished university a year earlier than my peers. Yay. Great.' Then?.... DS is very bright. Feb born so under the school system (non UK) where we live could have started primary school a year early but he's a small build, pretty geeky boy who would have been brilliant academically in the older class but would have forever been the youngest and smallest. He is top of his current year group and quite frankly bored in lessons BUT his confidence is brilliant, homework tasks take him 5 minutes (unlike his classmates who struggle to complete them) leaving him lots of time and energy to explore other interests. Yes he could be pushed more (both at school and home) but speaking from personal experience early academic success (and the pressure which goes with it) doesn't necessarily make for happy and successful adults

Because life is about balance.

Why should dc be bored and repressed academically so that they can be whoop whoop no more than 12 months older or younger than their peers.

If physical development is so important should children who start puberty late be held back? What if they finish puberty early should they skip school and be sent to a work house?

The thing is, OP, if they're really gifted, they will be out of sync academically with the year above in any case, so how far would you push it? Would you want them in a class with kids 3 years older than them? How about five or six years older? Socially, that would be a disaster, so on balance, it's better to just keep them with their same age peers.

As I said further up the thread, dd is summer born and one of the youngest in her year group. We were asked early on if we wanted to move her up to the year above, but we were advised that, even if we had, there still would have been a significant gap between dd and her classmates academically, so we didn't really see the point.

If you're really worried about having an autumn baby, just wait a few months and hope that you conceive in time for the spring/summer. A slightly longer age gap between siblings won't make a lot of difference to their relationship - we're talking about just a few months. Really, though, it is ridiculous to second guess what your unborn child's academic ability will be like. Just because you, your wife and your existing dc are academically inclined, it doesn't automatically follow that any subsequent dc will be. They could be born with learning difficulties, or with a distinctly average IQ, or with talents in a completely different area. I hate to say it, but you can't even guarantee that you will conceive another child at all. Either way, it's really unfair to put such ridiculous expectations on them from the start. You need to relax and stop overthinking things!

Skedaddle have you ever watched the programme Young Sheldon. I think you should

What if they finish puberty early should they skip school and be sent to a work house?

What??

I think it is a truly terrible idea - and I say that as a gifted adult with a one gifted child.

Firstly it sets them apart from their peers and makes them different. They may well be academically advanced but you need to remember that is just one facet of being a well rounded adult.

Plus 1 or 2 years acceleration feels to me like it is a good balance between academic and social development for bright children.

It really isnt at all

Secondly if you get a Primary school to agree you need to get a Secondary. Then there is the implications for University (which I assume you would want). DH sister was pushed forward a year and started University at 17. She wasnt able to live on Campus (due to being under 18) or properly intergrate herself into University life. She lasted a month and dropped out and has never gotten herself back.

And I think you are running before you can even stand with this. DS is a completely different character to his sister and he is an autumn child. He is probably even cleverer than she is (and she is top of her year in her Grammar School). But he is fairly unteachable and revels in being middle of the class. Would have struggled massively being up a year but being the oldest suits him.

You seem set on a carbon copy of your DD but actually that wouldnt be healthy for either child. DD tells me how relieved she is that DS is not competitive with her at all and walks to the beat of a very different drum. It makes life so much easier.

I’d be very cautious about expecting a second child to be gifted because the first one is and what it does to a child to have that expectation placed on them from birth - or before! I had that experience of following a ‘gifted’ sibling and the feeling of terrible inferiority it created (because my talents turned out to be different and to materialise later) has had quite a profound effect on my life.

I also know a couple who were gifted children themselves who anxiously observe their son for signs of giftedness and fret that he appears completely normal and that there are even peers more able than him in his cohort. There are no guarantees.

My children have developed at different paces and have different strengths. Don’t expect the second child to be the same as the first. Celebrate their differences and accept them for the individual they become.

Children born to a supportive, intelligent family with access to books and an indulgence of their natural curiosity and love of learning will achieve whether or not they qualify as gifted. I don’t agree that bright children are bored in Reception. There is so much to investigate and do there. Being academically able doesn’t mean they yearn to sit and study. I am very wary of the focus on constantly providing challenge to children - it can create a lot of stress and feeling of not being good enough when they are always being stretched and told to improve. Some very clever children shut down in the face of that pressure and stop engaging altogether. To a sensitive child, it feels like constant criticism.

For me, the most important thing is that a school has a supportive pastoral system and a positive ethos that enables children to thrive socially and emotionally. It’s the only way that they can achieve their potential. I would very much worry about a young child being pushed up out of their peer group and how out of place they might feel. Just like I’d worry about the younger sibling of a very gifted child carrying such a weight of parental expectation that they will be the same.

Why should dc be bored and repressed academically

That’s something a good teacher and a good school will prevent happening whilst allowing a child to be in a class with children the same age.

As for physical development, it’s not about puberty. It’s about being able to start school having no problems dressing and undressing, personal hygiene, putting on shoes, using cutlery etc.

Lots of children are gifted. Lots of those children struggle without proper friendships because they are different in their class. Why do you want to make things harder for your child with the chance of that ruining their full potential? They aren’t even born yet. Give them a chance to be their own person, gifted or not.

My experience is bright can occupy their brains very well, if allowed to. Those with global high performance can use their imagination to fill bored moments. If they can’t, there’s a gap in their overall performance. They won’t be repressed academically. Use additional activities to help their wider learning; schools don’t teach bright children very much at all in primary, they occupy and give them routines. The children teach themselves perfectly adequately with a teacher for support and guidance.

There is huge damage to be done by accelerating rather than broadening their experiences and learning. I rather suspect you’re winding up, but giving the benefit of the doubt, if they are accelerated, they find that in Yr13 they are excluded from any friends 18th parties and social activities. They may also struggle being accepted by children a year older.

You can’t possibly assume that two will have the same intellect.

@AlexaShutUp

The thing is, OP, if they're really gifted, they will be out of sync academically with the year above in any case, so how far would you push it? Would you want them in a class with kids 3 years older than them? How about five or six years older? Socially, that would be a disaster, so on balance, it's better to just keep them with their same age peers.

As I said further up the thread, dd is summer born and one of the youngest in her year group. We were asked early on if we wanted to move her up to the year above, but we were advised that, even if we had, there still would have been a significant gap between dd and her classmates academically, so we didn't really see the point.

If you're really worried about having an autumn baby, just wait a few months and hope that you conceive in time for the spring/summer. A slightly longer age gap between siblings won't make a lot of difference to their relationship - we're talking about just a few months. Really, though, it is ridiculous to second guess what your unborn child's academic ability will be like. Just because you, your wife and your existing dc are academically inclined, it doesn't automatically follow that any subsequent dc will be. They could be born with learning difficulties, or with a distinctly average IQ, or with talents in a completely different area. I hate to say it, but you can't even guarantee that you will conceive another child at all. Either way, it's really unfair to put such ridiculous expectations on them from the start. You need to relax and stop overthinking things!

I read your previous post but like many other pp I don’t think you actually read mine.

Ofc you made a valid point but you made it to the caricature of the obsessive competitive pushy parent of the usually only slightly above average child.

That is not me.

Parents who avoid Xmas births don’t get the same backlash. Moreover the opposite case of mine gets lauded, where parents want an autumn baby to spend more time at home and go to school later because they feel that is better.

Btw if accelerating 1 year and then leaving them to it is all that the school offered I would be very disappointed. They don’t know how to support a gifted child at all.

And yes dd is already out of sync. She was cognitively ready for school at 30 months. No way was she physically, socially or emotionally ready.

I expect the gap to continue to grow and I expect the schools to partner with dw and I to fill that gap. The early discussions we had were extracurricular activities (ofc), Diversifying so she does more subjects for fun and acceleration pathways for subjects where she has a particularly high aptitude.

So sorry to disappoint but our plans for our present and future children are all boringly sensible. But since my actual question was answered on page 1 we can just continue with the irrelevant advice and the witty repartees

30 months

Otherwise known as 2 and a half.

This has amused me. Is a private school
Out of the question OP? You really can get the school to be more bespoke/able to challenge etc

Actually @Quartz2208 and @LegoPirateMonkey I get your points and that's exactly why 1-2 years is a good flex in my opinion. There is a good balance to accelerating academically and 'coming of age' experiences

If dc did did move ahead I would encourage them to use that time for a year in industry and/or a year of travel. In our case as dual nationals dc could even voluntarily do a year of national service. Or spend a year at boarding school abroad to acquire a unique international perspective.

@Bringonspring

This has amused me. Is a private school Out of the question OP? You really can get the school to be more bespoke/able to challenge etc

We seriously considered prep/private before we moved, but not really anymore. Boarding is not off the table for me but dw is 99.9% against it.

But you yourself say that your DD was out of sync and presumably still is.

I have worked very hard on making sure that DD is socially where she should be and accepted in her peer group. She is happy and thriving in her proper year group. We have kept her interest up with extra curricular activities and keeping her grounded. That has been my main goal is supporting her through life

My parents were asked if they wanted to move me forward a year (Private School August birth) but they said no. And they were entirely right I was happy with friends and did things

Why do you feel the need to push her forward though?
YOu also need to be very careful about the expectations you have about your second. It is entirely probable you will end up with a very different child! DS best friend brother is off to Grammar school next year but there is no way he will be - in fact either of them will be joining their siblings

@Quartz2208

But you yourself say that your DD was out of sync and presumably still is.

I have worked very hard on making sure that DD is socially where she should be and accepted in her peer group. She is happy and thriving in her proper year group. We have kept her interest up with extra curricular activities and keeping her grounded. That has been my main goal is supporting her through life

My parents were asked if they wanted to move me forward a year (Private School August birth) but they said no. And they were entirely right I was happy with friends and did things

Why do you feel the need to push her forward though?
YOu also need to be very careful about the expectations you have about your second. It is entirely probable you will end up with a very different child! DS best friend brother is off to Grammar school next year but there is no way he will be - in fact either of them will be joining their siblings

@Quartz2208 I don't see myself as pushing them. I just see it as facilitating them to express themselves and really really get the best out of life. I don't see why they should be forced to stay with age-peers because it's the 'done thing'.

My experience with laid back parents was that I only realised later in life how many opportunities were closed off to me because they weren't proactive when I was younger. I love them but I know I can do better.

I would be happy with whatever makes dc happy, they could be a truck driver or controlling a Mars rover, but I don't want them feel that I didn't help them enough to get on either career path.

But @Skedaddle you seem fixated on accelerating being the way forward for that. And it really isnt - I agree that a certain amount of proaction is needed and that you need to give them opportunites and get them on the right career path but none of that really gels with pushing them away from their peers and into a situation they may not be emotionally or socially able to do.

Really really getting the best out of life is making sure that they are well rounded individuals whose natural skills are allowed to flourish but maintaining them to be socially and emotionally grounded. But understanding that whilst their intelligence can be an advantage it certainly doesnt make them better and to find the postives and fun in everything and not just academia.

DD just got her report and one of the things she was most proud of was exceeding in her approach to learning in PE (a subject she doesnt excel at).

DD is at our local Grammar and accelerating is certainly NOT the done thing there at all. So if you want that you need to change your approach

I really don’t see 1 or 2 years being outside any dc ‘peer group’ and @Quartz2208 2 years at most ages is not significant enough to make a difference imo. I’m definitely not fixated on accelerating but you do seem quite fixated on preventing it.

Would you have the same fervour to lecture parents of August children who keep their children back a year because they deem it better for their development. Or the many many parents who wait a month or 2 so they have an autumn baby.

I am 100% certain that if dd was born 4 days later and made to wait another year for school she would’ve been bored to tears and that cohort would not have been her peers by any measure. The cutoffs are arbitrary. They do not suit every child. It’s actually very very unfair that less ready children can wait 1 year but more ready children cannot advance 1 year.

1 year +/- should be a standard option open to all parents, and they should be trusted to choose for their dc with support/advice from educators.

2 years should be exceptional as curriculum diversity should provide more than enough challenge and stimulation imo.

And btw grammar schools are entirely accelerated, why is your ‘down to earth’ dd not at her nearest comprehensive? That comment reeked of inverted snobbery.

I was just watching the film Gifted. It's a great film, maybe you should watch it, if you haven't, OP.

Yes perhaps you are right having being that girl I know how much I would have struggled and how difficult it was socially anyway being in the right group. Later on having seen the effect on DH sister it further cemented my view

Yes they are stretched more at grammar but within their peer group. My point wasn’t about snobbery but why isn’t that if you live in an area be enough for you

As it happens I did time DS to be autumn I hated being the youngest when I was little and thank god I did he has really benefitted from being the oldest in his class. His best friend was held back and again that was the right move for him
There is a difference because v few children are actually ready for accelerating I have never met any

Personally I think there’s a big difference socially in a normal school year between the September birthdays and those nearly a year younger. Starting secondary school at 9 or 10 would be very unfair on the child, they wouldn’t be accepted by their peer group. People can and do defer a year for summer birthdays so when they were 12 they would be with 15 and 16 year olds!

I see your logic but 1 year socially is a significant difference when a child is 4/5 less so of course as a % when 18!

I admire your thought process (particular as a child who wasn’t pushed-although succeeded). But I worry that your child will be on here in 30 years time talking about how they were driven over the edge by an extreme father (however well meaning)

I haven't had experience of state education for my kids so can't comment beyond our school experience. But my "gifted" (sorry, I loathe that word) younger child has always been stretched at school. For example, his year 2 teacher gave him a GCSE (foundation) maths paper to do. The class were split into groups and given differentiated work in English and Maths. Creative writing and comprehension assignments don't limit the more academic child. He's won several creative writing competitions and progressed to the higher stages in the national maths and computational thinking competitions. We've worked on challenging things with him at home; there's so many resources available online.

I see the academic side of school as only one part of a much wider set of skills they develop. At times our younger son has struggled socially and been the target of (according to school) jealousy from other kids. You could argue this might be less prevalent if you're a "year up" but, equally, it could be worse and your child is singled out as the anomaly age wise. Which year group sports teams do you play in? The RFU limits "playing up" in rugby for primary aged kids for example, so do you drop back to your own year at that point? (Appreciate that not all schools have sports fixtures.)

Now both my kids are at secondary, my "normal" child has a lot of qualities that have brought him success. He's organised, conscientious, self motivated and polite and achieved all 9s at GCSE by working hard. On one hand, my younger child achieved a major academic scholarship (and has played three county and two regional sports outside school). However, he can be quite disorganised, was a bit precocious when younger, tends to coast through things unless he see glory to be had, doesn't control his emotions as well etc. I think it may be a tortoise and hare scenario.

I can't speak for anyone else's children but putting my son up a year or two wouldn't have been the right thing for him. He's been challenged academically and I don't think would have had the necessary emotional and social skills to cope with being with an older group of kids. In the three private schools we've been to, I don't recall any child being put up a year, only a few kids who were moved down a year for specific reasons.

I agree that there is a big difference socially - especially within a classroom environment.

DD's school had a trial period where children were grouped according to ability rather than age for certain subjects. It seemed like a great idea at first, with the Head trying DD out in the top group of the year above, but the reality was very different.

The work itself was still very easy so there was no real challenge there. Socially the class seemed to fall into one of two groups - either trying to baby her, or resenting her for being younger but still ahead.

Neither of those attitudes were particularly helpful and it would only have only got worse if she'd been moved up even further. It wasn't even as though DD was physically small or 'babyish'. She's taller than most of her class (Autumn birthday), and is considered to be very mature for her age. She has older friends (and older siblings) outside of school but that's a very different world to being in a classroom.

The trial was scrapped and DD was much happier being back full-time with her peers. Her teachers have been great at differentiating work for her and finding new things to challenge her.

I have been thinking about this and I remember when my Dad was at school in the 60s they took a certain percentage of the year and allowed them to take O levels a year early. He then did 3 years of A levels allowing him to do 5 subjects. He really enjoyed that because he got to learn more about different subjects at the right level

The issue I think for you lies in Primary. The current curriculum is quite rigid in not allowing that much room for challenging those who need it.

There is a huge difference between allowing those more academically minded children to have further work given to them and pushing them up a year. The former I think has been lost a little recently and would I think help. The latter is a no