school not addressing DS's ability at maths

[shoebedobedobedobedoo]

Not sure this is the right spot for this, but I'm sure someone will advise me if it isn't. Apologies for the length.
DS is in yr 2 and has just started at a new school. At his previous school he were told he was ‘exceptionally bright’ and they put him on an accelerated reading programme but never addressed his maths. I personally don’t think his reading is anything special (he has a wide vocabulary, but he doesn’t enjoy reading, and there is nothing exceptional about his reading when compared to DC1). His maths however is a different story.He knows all his tables to 12 and division of. He can add 3 digit numbers in his head and he understands simple fractions. He can multiply whole thousands in his head. He understands maths concepts easily. He loves maths.I think his level is about year 4 (but happy to be corrected). In week 1 at his new school (we relocated, he hasnt moved schools because of any school related problems) I spoke to his new teacher, told him about his maths and how we felt his previous school didn’t stretch or challenge him, said we didn’t want the same experience.

First week of homework; Q1 count the chickens. There were 4. Q2 count the sheep. There were 6. Q3 fill in the missing numbers on a number line 1-10. Q4Write ‘one more than/one less than for 2 digit numbers’.

I emailed the teacher and told him that this was neither challenging nor ability appropriate. Got an email back saying that DS struggles with problem solving and they aren’t going to do anything extra with his fluency until his problem solving is better. Whilst I would agree that his ‘problem solving’ isn’t on the same level as his mental maths (I did in fact also tell him this in the first week)I think this is more a delivery thing. For example, ask him '20 divided by 5' and he will answer immediately. Give him a page of questions, like ‘divide 20 sweets into 5 bags, how many sweets in each bag’ and he switches off. He doesn’t like the reading aspect and he thinks the questions are silly. I do understand that he does need this skill also, and I do try to do this with him at home.

Today they were adding 1digit numbers to 2 digit numbers (30+6, 70+5). Again, this is not challenging for him.

The school prides itself on treating children as individuals; its a private school. I just don’t understand why they seem completely unwilling to support and encourage his maths fluency. And I don’t know what to do.

We thought of having a meeting with the teacher to express our concern again, although fully expect that this will get us no-where, but think this is probably our next step.

Should we get him formally assessed and present this to the school in a ‘you aren’t meeting his needs’ kind of way?

If we were to explore an assessment, who does this? Is it an educational psychologist? Or do we just get an informal tutor report?

I don’t want to end up being ‘that parent’ , but can see that this is where we are heading regardless.

Where do I go with this?

It sounds like your son has an advanced ability to write learn/recollect maths facts, but a reduced ability to work out maths problems for himself, which is where the head-teacher is probably coming from.
I wouldn’t worry about it or try to over-play his maths-fact recall abilities. He won’t be damaged by doing age-appropriate work at this young age.

It sounds like he can regurgitate number facts / simple bonds but his lack of problem solving skills shows he doesn't have a thorough understanding of maths and its applications. He sounds bright but not gifted.

I have a 5 year old in my class who is reading 3 digit numbers and adding and subtracting 2 digit numbers. I expect this child will be at a similar ability level as your son, when he is in Year 2. As I said, bright but not gifted.

Schools are now heading towards solid understanding rather than regurgitated facts

Let him settle in before you create problems that aren’t there

So shes giving him age appropiate work which he finds challenging, and you have a problem with this?!

Its great his recall his fab, so if its word problems he struggles with let them work on word problems with him!

Hes bright, ans young, maybe take a step back and just do fun stuff with him/play, leave the maths alone. You sound overly invested in it...

He needs to understand what he is doing and not just regurgitate facts. The teacher is correct that he needs to be able to problem solve before he moves on to harder skills. They should be differentiating for him with problem solving and higher order thinking tasks rather than harder Maths skills.

I agree with PPs who say he sounds very bright but not gifted.

He sounds bright but not gifted. I totally agree, hence the "i'm not sure if this is the right place" at the start of the post....didn't really know where else to put it.

So shes giving him age appropiate work which he finds challenging, and you have a problem with this?! I think you've missed my point, and I'm really not overly invested. I have a child who is very good at mental maths, but no-one seems remotely interested, which i find frustrating.
Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

Im not sure why theyd be interested that hes great at mental maths tbh. A bit like some come in able recite their alphabet and some don't.

The point of infant school maths is to ensure he has the foundations for learning. It makes no sense to run with something hes already mastered when he needs t9 work on word problems.

I think you're right and the teacher is right and there's some cross purposes at play.

You're right that he is strong at a particular area.
They're right that his weakness is a particular area.

Unfortunately I don't think you can say that he should have more challenging work in one area because he's good at that and then dismiss the other stuff as he doesn't like reading things.

I would ask for more challenging homework if the homework is an area he is already strong, but accept that he can't just be raced ahead on his pet areas and avoid the areas he is weaker on. If he is to be a talented and rounded mathematician then he needs all of it.

As an aside, I think the reading program you mention is Accelerated Reader and that's a reading program for most ages from primary through to secondary (typically y2-8).

What is it that you feel needs to happen?

Is it that you just want his abilities to be acknowledged?

If he isn't unhappy and he's doing work that challenges him, the teachers are listening to you and engaging with your communications then there's not really a lot more to do?

Teachers generally know what they're up to and they have seen most stuff before. I'd take a wait and see approach myself.

For the record, i have really bright children but they are older now. Having been through it my view really is to enjoy childhood - inaginary games, walks in the woods, baking, all the stuff memories are made of. He's already "got it" with the mental matha and hes bright so he will "get there" with the problem solving.

OP, I'm currently working with a family who think their Reception age child is perfectly fine, because he can recite numbers to 100 forwards and backwards, and mentally add 2 digit numbers if asked. However, he doesn't say anything else, at all. No communication skills whatsoever.
Whilst your DS clearly isn't in the same category as this child, my point is that being very able in one area of learning does not a gifted child make.
Let him settle in. He needs to focus on what he can't do, not what he can.

I bet they have kids in the class who are gifted and talented in maths and can problem-solve and he perhaps isn’t as good as them. To give you an example at 3 my G&T brother did all of the stuff your DS did but was also able to apply his maths. You couldn’t trick him at all when it came to sweets or a share of cake as he knew instantly how much he should get. He also learned how to cook using fractions and ratios and would freak his teacher out by converting a recipe from grams into proportions mentally, not weighing anything, but still getting perfect results.

If he’s good at reciting maths then you can support your DS by enrolling him into a programme that builds on that - Kumon is really good.

I started this thread about my maths-mad DS (just started Y1, similar to your DS in having a good knowledge of times tables, strong mental arithmetic, slightly less good at applying it). There are lots of suggestions for broadening/deepening maths knowledge on the thread.

I’ve done a bit of reading round the subject and having real depth of knowledge/ability to apply it in a range of contexts (ie the problem solving stuff) seems equally if not more important.

I’ve been trying to make up stories with a maths component and he has to solve the maths puzzles to progress the story - I made up one the other day about building a tower - with elements of how many bricks, how many floors, how long did it take etc.

Oops forgot the link to the thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/3659466-Is-getting-ahead-in-maths-a-waste-of-time?pg=1&order=

Apart from the times tables, the skills you mention aren't really about regurgitating facts, so I don't know where the posters are coming from who are claiming that he has a good memory but no understanding.

For some reason he doesn't do well on word problems, where the maths is much simpler than what he can do. You think it is because he loses interest/can't be bothered. But school thinks it is because he cannot do them.
Even if school is right, then giving him homework of the 20+7= type surely won't help address this. It seems the homework he is getting is in the area of his strengths (arithmetics), but way below his abilities; rather than in an area he struggles with, and at a level where the challenge is just right for growing on it (not too easy/not too overwhelming). Probably the homework is simply not differentiated.

I would suggest two things:

1. Try to determine if school is right and DS really can't do simple word problems, or if you are right and he can do them but for some reason doesn't. Does he apply maths in every day life? E.g. working out proportions in recipes... or does he just do 'numbers'? If you read a word problem to him, can he do it? What if you give him a word problem that entails 'hard' maths? Does it become more attractive then, and keep his attention? We constantly hear that children (e.g. in DS class) are being stretched/given extra challenges by having word problems. And in fact a lot of children can very easily do 7-5=2 but seem to struggle if the problem reads 'Amy has done 5 of her homework tasks, but there are 7 set altogether. How many more does Amy need to do?" So it makes sense to get children to learn how to do word problems, with examples where the maths itself is actually basic. However my DS seems to find this type of problem ridiculously easy. Sometimes I watch him and he will have written down the answers before I have finished reading the question. He is extraordinarily fast, and precise, and despairs at the thought that these are meant to be 'hard'. He wonders regularly when he will be given actually hard work. But he is a 'teacher pleaser' so he does them anyway. I can imagine that a different child might indeed get disheartened at a page full of text where the actual maths amounts to no more than, say, five simple addition problems. But you have to read every question carefully, and you know you can do it, and it is just a bit dumb. So in short I can imagine that you are right and he can do word problems, but equally I can imagine that school is right and he finds word problems a lot harder than arithmetic.

Either way, you can then try to work on whatever the problem is. E.g. have a talk about why we sometimes need to do 'boring' work, and that the teacher needs to be able to see that you can do it. Give him word problems that are more interesting as they contain harder maths.
Or, conversely, have a talk that just because he is good at one part of maths does not mean he gets to skip the other bit that he is less good at. Lots of exercises with simple word problems.

2. Adjust your expectations from school. Occasionally you might come across a great teacher who goes out of their way to engage your DS with interesting maths. But most of the time DS will be doing maths that is on the same topic and level as the rest of his class, with some extra 'depth' or 'mastery' aspect within that topic - and that may frequently be word problems. So instead keep maths fun at home, do interesting maths with him, not stuff that will be covered at school anyway but going properly sideways. That what you have been looking for from school - doing something with, building on his great arithmetics skills and understanding of maths concepts - is probably exactly what you can't expect from school, but might provide at home.

For example, ask him '20 divided by 5' and he will answer immediately. Give him a page of questions, like ‘divide 20 sweets into 5 bags, how many sweets in each bag’ and he switches off

As others have said, it sounds like he has a good memory for maths "facts" but he doesn't appear to understand the concepts at a deeper level. I think it's right that the school encourages him to work on this understanding.

Times tables and the like are pretty useless if you don't actually understand how to use them.

What is it that you feel needs to happen ......I don't know, hence the thread, and the general feel of the answers is that nothing needs to happen!

I don't think I've explained myself very well....aside from the tables, its not regurgitated facts...he can work stuff out, he just prefers direct verbal questions rather than written problems to solve.

I think our main concern is that he will get bored counting chickens up to 10.

to reiterate again...I don't think he falls under "G&T", I think he's bright, but not off the scale, I just didn't know where else to post.

Thank you all. Lots of helpful advice.

I'm not sure being able to do mental maths is much use if its not accompanied by an understanding of how to use it. I say that as a parent of a very talented mathematician. He was quick and bright and good at both. But not so obscenely talented that he was ever described as gifted or being able to sit his GCSE's at the age of 11 or anything! He was actually pretty bright at a lot of things except handwriting. We missed that!

I think it would be a good idea to trust the judgement of the professional - the teacher (!) who is there to educate children to have a rounded set of talents - not play narrowly to one. And don't get fixated on the one thing. There will be so many ups and downs in the years ahead you have no way of knowing what skills and capabilities he will end up with at 16 or 18. Enjoy the ride!

Thank you brilliotic......you've summarised him perfectly. The homework question is exactly the type of thing that he just looses interest in, partly the words, but also partly the numbers....I think he'd be more interested if the numbers were 87-23, rather than 7-5.
I think its a case of doing extra word work with him at home and hoping he doesn't loose interest in 7-5 in the meantime. your post is really helpful.

You seem to be under the impression number recall is more important than the understanding of what these number facts mean and their implementation. Sharing 20 sweets between 5 children is how maths is implied. A calculator can answer 20|5, it's working out that 20/5 is the calculation to be done is the life skill.

My dd was like your ds, she could do mental maths several years ahead of age group but if it was a problem solving (a story with a mathematical problem enclosed) she couldn't work out what the maths were - she's autistic.

He's new to the school and they need to assess his all round ability, but also ensure there's no gaps. I remember the frustration, she would come home, finish homework in a couple of minutes (sometimes making sloppy mistakes because she wasn't interested) then grab her gcse maths workbook (this was year 3 because her previous school did stretch her, we too moved areas but state school)

Wait until half term then consider writing to the school so you can carefully consider what you are asking?

You've also mentioned that it's week 1 of homework. I think the teacher would be using homework completion to set groups and parental involvement before differentiation.

We rely on online maths games to challenge DS and work on the aversion to word problem issue he seems to share with your kiddo. Matific or Prodigy are more fun than worksheets.

Prodigy is my lesser because they taunt your child with 'kids with a membership get more points' after each round. If your child is going to pester you to pay, I'd recommend against it. 😉

Get him to do problems on nRich website. They are excellent for problem solving. Doing mental maths quickly is very useful. However, it needs to go hand in hand with problem solving skills.

In many years of teaching in selective schools, I have met ,for some reasons, many boys who think they are good at Maths because they can do mental Maths quickly. They seem to overplay that and don’t or can’t solve problems when they are required them to slow down, think and put many concepts and skills together to solve the problem. Many of them switch off so just be careful with how you approach this.