School for the gifted

[NameChangedNoImagination]

If there was a school for the gifted, would you send your child? I would have loved one when I was a child. Where learning is accelerated to your own pace and where you have time and encouragement to study special interests.

extra Bravo!

I thought it was generally agreed in education circles that acceleration is generally a bad thing.

And all this rubbish about extra funding for “gifted” children being an investment...in cynical financial terms, the best use of money would be to plough it into the disadvantaged and low ability kids. That would be the best way to reduce spending on benefits, health and crime in the future.

Acceleration regarding pace of teaching for different learners is virtually universal in all main stream education. The idea that different groups learn to different depths at different paces is the entire point of setting and streaming certain academic subjects.

Acceleration regarding skipping grades so you are with an older cohort has pros and cons that different research debates. In studies, it on average produces better academic outcomes for gifted children but can be very damaging socially for certain children, particularly those who do not have a high degree of emotional intelligence or who have socially difficulties in general. I'd say its something that should be judged on an individual basis.

However, gifted streams and gifted schools circumvent that requirement as you stay with age peers but can still learn at a suitable pace.

“Acceleration regarding pace of teaching for different learners is virtually universal in all main stream education”

Surely that’s differentiation, not acceleration?

Differentiation is teaching slightly different material in a mixed ability class.

Either way, acceleration regarding grade skipping can be beneficial for the right child though isn't always suitable.

“Differentiation is teaching slightly different material in a mixed ability class”
Or significantly different material in a class- mixed ability or otherwise. As, for example, to a gifted pupil in a top set class.

Interesting post extra but I don't think skipping years is very common at all these days, at least in the UK state sector. (I did, but that was in the 80s.)

Skipping years is such a bad idea.

"unlimitted middle class people game over system that is seen as producing and advantage. There are a number of systematic changes in both identification methods and recruitment that are being implemented to address the bias that often can exist."

I think the problem is that these measures never seem to effective. In practice, if your going into a school for gifted children, your going into a middle class space.

As a child, that would have given me the strong message that I could only be myself (only be accepted?) by leaving my background and normal environment behind.

Whereas what I needed was some reassurance that I could be liked and accepted within my own working class community. Which, thankfully I did find as an adult.

As I say, it's a complex issue for me. But on balance I wouldn't be placing my children into such a socially segregated environment.

I think the issue with any type of 'school for the gifted' is that academnic ability is a continuum, and isnot uniform across all subjects.

So children don't come labelled as 'gifted' or 'ordinary'. They come labelled as 'Exceptional at maths but just about middling in english ... and obsessively interested in football'.

Hence you have a problem of identification. What percentage is the 'right' one for needing different provision? What should you do about children with 'spiky' profiles who are either only very able at a single subject, or conversely very poor at a few areas while being very able in others? the 11+, for example, is notoriously poor at actually sifting out the genuinely top x%. A grammar which is supposed to cater for the top 5% probably actually selects a fairy random collection of the top 20%, favouring the best prepared and the most diligent and those from middle class households [and specific ethnic minorities].

A second issue is that even if you remove the top x% with absolute precision, the problem moves down to those in the x+1th percentile - the 'new outliers in the school for the non-gifted'. As there isn't clear water between the gifted' and 'non-gifted', being the 'now most relatively gifted' children now have the same problems that the top x% once had.

Tbh - as a gifted, year accelerated, prize-for-the-top-result at Oxbridge type - my perspective is that the issue is not being ABSOLUTELY gifted. It is being RELATIVELY gifted in a specific environment. So a moderately able child but in a low ability cohort (e.g. in a school in a particular catchment) will suffer more than a more extremely able child in a cohort with a full range of ability. So IME what would work best is balancing the admissions to all schools to make them genuinely comprehensive, so that all schools have much more closely matched cohorts to one another.

In My Gkorious Reign school admission will be by a combination of fair banding and lottery. Watch the middle classes squirm then!

The middle classes would be ok as they have cars to transport their kids to different areas. In the city next to our LA there has been hell up this year because the city schools didn’t have enough places so kids were sent to schools in our area. Even with bus passes the kids face long journeys to unfamiliar areas with poor public transport.

@can’tkeepaway - i don’t really understand. Intuitively i’d Say that if you had 2 schools and combined their populations and the top 50% went to 1 school, and the bottom to the other, you’d get 2 populations with shifted curves for ability but with the variance smaller??? Stats wasn’t my strong point!

If you assume that it is easier to teach a class with a lower range of ability because less time is required for differentiating work, then isn’t it more efficient to have a selective system.

I know this is a big IF and many other things from studies might show that mixed ability can benefit the whole class despite more work required for differentiation... I was just curious because I find it hard to think of the mechanism.

“f you assume that it is easier to teach a class with a lower range of ability because less time is required for differentiating work, then isn’t it more efficient to have a selective system” But it isn’t easier. There is still a range of ability and understanding. And a need for different styles of teaching. We are teetering very close to the brink of super clever children who need differentiated teaching- and everyone else......

How would children be selected for a school for the gifted?
How would the selection process overcome the disadvantage of poverty versus wealth if the Grammar school selection system doesn't manage it.

@bertrand - didn’t mean it like that!

What I meant is that I would guess that it would be easier to teach a class of ability 100-120 OR 120-140 OR 110-130 than a class of the same number of pupils with ability 100-140 (ie a larger range but not necessarily different mean). I would guess in the class with a larger range, you would need more different techniques with less time spent on each one?

The middle classes would be ok as they have cars to transport their kids to different areas. In the city next to our LA there has been hell up this year because the city schools didn’t have enough places so kids were sent to schools in our area. Even with bus passes the kids face long journeys to unfamiliar areas with poor public transport.

Part of my job is to help parents do placing requests.
As a general rule middle class parents want to get their kids into the most prestigious schools and don't mind travel. Working class parents want the nearest school and put in placing requests on practical grounds. Often to do with the difficulty in reaching the school by public transport.
The school on my estate was closed down a few years ago. It's a big b
One of contention. The LA eventually worked out that more school places are needed and plan to open another one nearby. For a lot of people this isn't good enough. They want it right on the doorstep, which surprised me.
I think beyond the practicalities people are wanting a school that's unequivocally "theirs". It's a very different attitude to the middle class.

In the US, in addition to absolute test scores (IQ most often), some school districts are looking at relative performance within a school (US state schools are heavily segregated by wealth). The idea is that the top performing pupil in a low income school / background would get admission and the gifted schools have to accept top performers from each school in addition to screening by scores. Its been implemented and has worked in creating diversity but has been controversial as there has been teething issues in getting all students to a common base level given different experiences etc.

Typically a gifted program requires you to have min IQ score and typically you need to be strong across the board (even if you have a greater strength in one area).

In a gifted school you can have different sets to deal with differing ranges of gifted. Of course a child with a one in a million ability may not be catered for but that doesn't mean the broader school isn't serving a large enough population to be worth establishing and running.

I agree in fair banding and comprehensive education but again we are taking about the 2% outliers. I think you can have a separate conversation about better mainstream education policies without confounding it with arguments for or against a gifted program / stream / school.

Also, my sister in law is a primary school teach-- in class differentiation is not very different work. Typically its the same topic but with harder or more in-depth questions. Teachers are still teaching one subject matter but then when they break children into groups they extend the lesson and learning with the help of a TA.

This is why differentiation can only go so far. It works well for the vast majority of pupils (more than 90% of the population). But the extreme outliers (two or more standard deviations from the avg) simply can't be extended enough via in class-room differentiation.

For context a gifted child can before they start reception easily master most skills through the end of year 1 (or beyond) with very little instruction or effort. Its a big ask for a primary school teacher to accommodate without additional resources.

Given that such an exclusive school is probably going to have to be a boarding school since finding enough interested and eligible children living within commutable range is going to prove difficult - except perhaps in a very densely populated area like London - is there not a danger attending the school would end up feeling like being trapped at a Mensa party 24/7 with no escape for good behaviour?

Is that really what people want for their children?

It could run in the same way as the dance and music schools with weekly Associate extension classes (on a Saturday) for those of primary age and who don’t want to board full time, the children apply for full time entry age 11.

So it becomes even more socially exclusive. It’s sounding like a worse idea with every post!

Well, the ones who seem to think that bright children can only learn and socialise with other bright children would probably think that was a fantastic idea!

I think that kids would probably cover a wider/deeper range of material than they would at a regular school. Whether it translates into reduction in mental health difficulties or economic benefit for country (in terms of scientific/creative output) I’m not sure - but it would be plausible.

They may miss out on learning to communicate with others not similar to themselves.

I presume the ‘big problem’ would be at primary as at older ages kids can read things for themselves (eg maths puzzles, shakespeare) and research their interest in the internet? Also, once reading, writing , basic arithmetic and algebra are covered, lots more possibilities for extension become available? I would think within-school resources (like books, website, raspberry pi, micro bit) would be cheaper than a whole school . Also, it might help those with spiky profiles - some v talented mathematicians are average at English and vice versa.