School for the gifted

[NameChangedNoImagination]

If there was a school for the gifted, would you send your child? I would have loved one when I was a child. Where learning is accelerated to your own pace and where you have time and encouragement to study special interests.

Sorry for the typos! Trying to type on quick bathroom break away from my kids. Stirling parenting

Bertrand I never said that and I wasn't actually thinking of you specifically in my response to GHGN. Why are you so antagonistic and inflammatory in all of your responses? I'm really not interested in getting into a fight with a grown woman on the internet.

I am just saying I think there are a number of people posting that don't actually know or care anything about gifted education issues and aren't genuinely interested in learning about them either.

They are just here for some other reason (whatever that might be...)

Why is one child worth more than another?

It really isn't a question of one child being worth more than another. As the parent of one child who happens to be gifted, I'm hardly going to argue that she is less important than anyone else, am I?!

The point is not that one is worth more than the other, rather that one already has a massive head start over the other. I'm not saying that gifted children never have problems, of course they do. However, they also have tremendous advantages which children at the other end of the spectrum don't have. Given that resources are limited, I would far rather invest in helping those who start at a disadvantage. It will never be possible to level the playing field, even with all of the resource in the world, but we should do whatever we can.

If children are experiencing social or emotional difficulties, or mental health problems, I think that's a separate issue from their giftedness, and needs to be treated as such. Those children absolutely need and deserve extra support, as do children with similar difficulties who don't happen to be gifted. Sadly, our mental health services are woefully under-resourced and this does need to be addressed. However, it needs to be addressed for all children (and adults!), not just those who are gifted.

Personally, I don't think giftedness itself means that a child necessarily needs special provision to be made, other than appropriate differentiation in the classroom and suitable opportunities for enrichment - which, incidentally, my dd's schools have generally managed pretty well on the whole. Where there are additional needs, this obviously does require additional support, but only a subset of gifted children will have such needs.

I was going to say something similar to what Alexa said- but she did it better.

I am from a different country and years ago it was quite different back then. All schools were state. We actually got the least funding since our school didn’t need anything apart from some old textbooks for teachers. Every lesson we could only do none or 1 to 2 Maths problems at best so no need for printing or resources.

I used to work in the state sector so I know how underfunded it was. However, there was so much wastage as well but that is entirely different conversation.
I am not a big fan of the idea of “opening a new school for the gifted in the UK” for a number of reasons, mainly funding and social acceptance. That’s why I don’t normally contribute this topic even though it appears quite often.

“If children are experiencing social or emotional difficulties, or mental health problems, I think that's a separate issue from their giftedness, and needs to be treated as such.”

I think the ‘if’ is more a question of ‘when’ for extremely gifted children, especially those stuck in the current school system, underfunded as it is. And I think some posters are absolutely suggesting that some children are ‘worth’ supporting more than others. I think the difference between us is that I’ve seen these so called ‘advantages’ of extreme giftedness with my own eyes, across many generations of my family, and I don’t feel as though giftedness is any kind of a golden ticket. At all. With the right kind of handling these kids can change the world, but without it many of them are in a lot of trouble.

And if your child happens to be profoundly gifted and also intrinsically self motivated, social and with excellent mental health then they really have won the genetic lottery and of course you’ll be happy putting them in any school. I would be the same. Sadly that’s not the case for every child.

I think the ‘if’ is more a question of ‘when’ for extremely gifted children, especially those stuck in the current school system, underfunded as it is.

I guess this is where our thinking diverges. You think problems are inevitable, I don't. And I say this as someone who did experience social and emotional problems personally, but I don't believe it had tobe that way, and I now have friends who were equally gifted but sailed through their school lives quite happily.

And if your child happens to be profoundly gifted and also intrinsically self motivated, social and with excellent mental health then they really have won the genetic lottery and of course you’ll be happy putting them in any school.

Well, yes. This pretty much sums up my dd, and we know we're very lucky. She isn't unique, though.

I feel really strongly that we shouldn't assume that social/emotional difficulties are inevitable for gifted children, because that can actually get in the way of those children getting the support that they need. I really wish that someone had noticed that I had poor social skills as a child, and that they had helped me to address this, instead of just accepting that it was simply one of the unavoidable downsides of being clever. I firmly believe that I didn't need to experience the issues that I did, and that, if people had seen me as an ordinary, socially awkward kid, rather than an intellectual oddity, my problems could have been resolved much sooner.

“With the right kind of handling these kids can change the world, but without it many of them are in a lot of trouble.”
That can be said about any child.

This thread has reminded me of an argument that occurred between two of my friends at Cambridge. One of them insisted that highly intelligent people were destined to be unhappy, whereas the other believed that nothing was inevitable and that individuals were responsible for their own happiness.

The one who thought unhappiness was inevitable has gone through life feeling pretty miserable. The one who believed that nothing was inevitable went through some pretty tough life experiences but sought support and has generally gone through life feeling optimistic and fulfilled.

I do think that our beliefs create self-fulfilling prophesies. If you expect your gifted child to struggle, the chances are they will.

@AlexaShutUp I think that the mental and emotional difficulties arise as a result of a mismatch between a child and his or her school environment. I strongly disagree that some kind of parental magical glass - half- full or empty thinking will produce happy or unhappy gifted children. Just that with the kids we are talking about things can be complex. The book “Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults: ADHD, Bipolar, OCD, Asperger's, Depression, and Other Disorders“ is a useful one for how behavioural differences can manifest in the gifted population.

Alexa patently not true. I struggled massively. Parents never expected me to, neither noticed.

I strongly disagree that some kind of parental magical glass - half- full or empty thinking will produce happy or unhappy gifted children.

Of course not, that isn't what I'm saying. However, I do think that parental attitudes impact on how we respond to difficulties when they arise, and that these responses have long term outcomes for our children.

There may well be a mismatch between the child and their school environment, but in all but the most extreme cases, surely it's better to help the child learn how to adapt to that environment rather than teaching them that they will never fit in. Assuming that a child will inevitably struggle socially because they're different from everyone else tends to get in the way of giving that child strategies to improve their own situation.

I've seen this happen over and over. Parents who lament their child's isolation at school but don't think to address the issues which are obviously contributing to that isolation. I get that it's very hard when our kids are having a hard time to accept that they may be contributing to the problem, but in some cases, that's the reality. I feel particularly strongly about this because I wish that someone had intervened to help me.

We have been very fortunate in that dd hasn't really had any major struggles, but my nephew could have very easily ended up as one of those bored, frustrated, isolated kids if early intervention hadn't helped him to adapt.

I spent my childhood believing that my loneliness and sense of not fitting in was inevitable. It was fucking miserable. I now know that I was wrong, and I hate the thought of other kids suffering with the same screwed up belief system.

I struggled massively. Parents never expected me to, neither noticed.

OK, so if they never noticed, I'm guessing that they never attempted to help, and so the outcome is no different from how it would have been if they had just accepted the difficulties as inevitable.

My point is that we have to stop accepting that these kids have to be miserable and start helping them to change things by looking at what is causing the problems and addressing those issues. Personally, I feel that taking them out of mainstream school and putting them into a different environment is merely reinforcing the message that they're a bit odd and won't fit into ordinary society, so I would rather teach them the skills that they need in order to function effectively in any social setting.

NameChange, I’m sorry you struggled and even more so that your parents didn’t notice. To an outsider, this suggests maybe your family set up weren’t aware of/nurturing enough of your mental health/happiness/balance? Maybe that would have helped your development as much as a special school could have?

I agree with Alexa. As Candida says, il faut cultiver notre jardin (gotta cultivate our garden!). Having struggled emotionally at school whilst being also considered/treated as “gifted”, I would never lay the blame on having had unchallenging lessons! Sibling was also gifted and was happy as Larry- no emotional/behavioural problems. Lucky sod.

Of course it is not as black and white as positive parental attitude=welL adjusted happy gifted child. But there’s an awful lot of emphasis on negatives on this thread. And I genuinely do wonder what good labelling people does- if gifted doesn’t mean excelling in specific subjects or being able to learn independently or teach themselves- what does it mean? If we are talking about children who are not NT, that is surely a different matter? (Although again it generally is accepted that mainstream settings are the best option for most people- to set them up to be part of mainstream society).
Little boxes, little boxes...

I do wonder how much people expect school to do for them. Husband and I are specialists in specific subjects- I would never expect school to instil the love of and knowledge of these subjects to the depth or extent that we could at home. If children don’t like the subjects despite being ‘gifted’- shrug maybe they are different and will find their own interests.

If we are talking about children who are not NT, that is surely a different matter?

Agreed. My comments apply to NT children who happen to be gifted. I wouldn't claim to know enough about what is needed for children on the autistic spectrum or with other additional needs.

Cyber indeed I didn't have great parenting on the emotional side. I was expected not to have any emotions at all.

BUT gifted children often have an innate sensitivity.

educationaladvancement.org/many-gifted-children-also-highly-sensitive/

And if this is not nurtured and respected at home or at school the consequences can be disastrous.

As a side note, there are also no schools that I know of that cater for gifted children with additional needs. A population that definitely needs to be supported.

attending the school would end up feeling like being trapped at a Mensa party 24/7 with no escape for good behaviour?
Is that really what people want for their children?

Obviously I'm not talking about mensa, but musically speaking Yes, of course it's what I want for my dd.
It makes her happy and it's what she wants, when it stops being what she wants she leaves, but not even a mention of it atm.
Not everyone would thrive in that situation, it isn't easy and I have no idea how she does it, but she does, with such enthusiasm.

And in MDS schools (our experience is dance so sorry if it’s different fir music) there is a system of annual appraisals to determine whether the school is still right for the child and whether the child wants to be there.

To me it’s about making sure our country can produce the best people, be them scientists, mathematicians or musicians and giving the tiny proportion of children who are beyond the norm the chance to succeed based on aptitude not ability to pay.

Otherwise other countries will just overtake us.

I think there’s a real difference between talented- as in having a talent for some that is best nurtured early, like Romany’s dd- and being academically gifted. A musician needs specialised teachers, other musicians to play with and a schedule that allows for the necessary hours of practice. An academically gifted child can be provided with extension work within a normal classroom, or outside lessons in their particular subject. They are unlikely to be gifted in everything. The musicians are doing ordinary school work in all other subjects. The gifted mathematician could do the same. There is certainly an argument for finding more imaginative ways of supporting particular subjects- some kids in ds’s year have been working with students from our local university, for example. I just think the idea of putting them in a separate school is a disastrous one. Particularly if they struggle socially.

Interesting debate. I'm not generally in favour of special buildings for clever people. I can see that a proper gifted and talented scheme is needed though - either a collaboration between several secondaries to create a class sized cohort or It could operate more like the specialist units that attach to mainstreams for other needs. The ones that bus children in from a wider area than the main catchment. The children in the unit spends some of the day in the unit and some of it in normal classes. I do struggle to believe that someone gifted academically can't learn drama, food tech, art, PSHE, RE, sports, DT and so on alongside other pupils. This would also give more scope for spiky profiles which my family have in abundance - they could go to the unit for maths and physics if that's where they are league ahead.

I'm not sure how reliable IQ tests are or how you'd go about selecting children to go to these units. Bit of a minefield to be honest.

gifted children often have an innate sensitivity.

Actually, I agree with this. However, while that sensitivity can make life difficult (as I know too well from my own experience), it can also be a huge positive. I have noticed over the years that my dd tends to have much stronger and more intense emotional reactions to stuff than her peers. This means that she is very sensitive to criticism and she can get incredibly upset about any perceived injustice. However, it also means that she has the capacity for great joy and enthusiasm, a determination to stand up against any unfairness and an unusual degree of insight and empathy. My job as a parent is to help to harness her sensitivity in a positive way while giving her strategies for managing and containing the more difficult emotions.

Leapfrog, I do agree that there may be a dearth of suitable provision for gifted children who also have additional needs, and I'm willing to accept that a special school might be appropriate for some of those children, though I don't believe it would be right for all. The difficulty is that I don't know if the numbers stack up to make anything other than boarding feasible, and I'd have thought that taking potentially vulnerable children away from their home/family environment might end up doing more harm than good. I think my ideal would still be to improve the SEN provision within the mainstream school system, but I know we're a long way off getting that right at the moment, and a lot more resource would be needed for that to change.

“I do struggle to believe that someone gifted academically can't learn drama, food tech, art, PSHE, RE, sports, DT and so on alongside other pupils.”
Yes, this. And actually, any other subject except the one they are gifted in. And we really are, aren’t we? talking mostly about maths and the sciences. My ds was , if not gifted, definitely streets ahead of his classmates at English and history and there was never the slightest difficulty providing him with appropriate things to do in a class where the vast majority were expected to get 6s with the occasional 7.

There are schools for twice exceptional kids in LA and New York (at least. Maybe more our there but that’s off the top of my head.) Both are day schools, and both are always full.