Does this look like giftedness, or besotted mother with too much time to notice stuff?

[668neighbour]

Genuinely asking the question in the title.

If it is more gifted-looking, any suggestions as to what to do? We live somewhere with no specialist programmes for G&T kids. So anything I do will be me supplementing a mediocre local private school education.

DS (21 months) has been speaking in sentences since about age 17 months, and able to read a few favourite words for a while. He was pointing out the relevant letters in the alphabet up on his wall, referring back to Peepo (a favourite book, read every night) at about 16-17 months. He has books with alphabets in and sometimes will go on a hunt for a favourite letter "where's my little q". At 18-19 months ish I realised that if I wrote out the main words from his favourite books, he knew what they were (Gruffalo, Stick Man, Mr Frumble, Lowly, etc.). He points out words where there is no obvious context - eg "music shop" written on an otherwise blank wall.
At 19 months he demonstrated he knows digits by walking round the street reading the (digits of) house numbers on the letterboxes, though he'd probably known them a lot longer. He knew colours at about 15 months.

He gets concepts like vertical vs. horizontal straight away (they were today's favourite new thing to point out) and re-applies them correctly in other contexts.

He can tell you the story of each of his favourite books, in his own way - eg Gruffalo's Child (mix of book and film) "Squirrel footprints. Mummy squirrel says No, too small. Little Gruffalo hedgehog squeaky. Daddy gruffalo grumpy, why not why not, big bad mouse after you. [etc.]". Favourite books are things like the Julia Donaldsons, Where the wild things are, Peter Rabbit, Benjamin Bunny, Jeremy Fisher, Mrs Tiggywinkle, and anything and everything by Richard Scarry. He loves the Usborne First Thousand Words book - knows everything in there and will spend ages pointing things out. He was intrigued when I got out the French one, and French Beatrix Potters, last week.

He recognizes tunes when they're played or sung out of context. He only sings one tune, but it's correct. He used to sing a D when I tuned my violin (it hasn't been out of its case in months - I should get it out). He knows the songs of about 20 birds (wren, chaffinch, etc) and will correct us if we give the wrong name - this is from those books that have the recordings and pictures of the birds - he can also identify about 10 of these in real life (haven't ever seen the other ones).

He absolutely loves things that spin, and different notes - so his favourite youtube material ever is watching change ringing filmed in a belfry with bells turning round on wheels, and making nice patterns of notes. Favourite thing at the local museum is the anemometer on the roof, which he spontaneously remembered at 19 months after a 3 month gap, and ran over to the correct window saying "where's my hammer motor?"

We haven't actively taught him any of this - I half-heartedly started with a few flashcards around 18 months but was too lazy/sleep deprived to do it consistently. The only things we've done consistently are read with him, many books per day; and play lots of music (classical and jazz), recordings and on piano/recorders/guitar/violin. As of the past week I am trying to read one book in French per day as well.

He's also an absolutely terrible sleeper (seems to not need to sleep after about 1am), throws the most spectacular screeching tantrums (often because he's really tired by the time we're at playgroup at 10am), and is terrible at task switching. He walked at 13 months but only learnt to crawl and get up off the floor last week at 21 months, so is a long way behind his peers in climbing, running and jumping.

Opinions very welcome, and particularly suggestions of resources.

He seems very bright 😊

Most babies can't do those things.

You don't yet know if he's going to have trouble making friends, at PE, subtracting, or putting up with boring stuff or annoying people. All good life skills that might make school quite challenging. If academic side does turn out to be easy, then great that he only has some challenges.

he sounds clever, and he sounds like he has a lovely Mum x

He sounds similar to my ds1 who is 7 now and has averaged out in some areas but is very bright when it comes to maths and reading. Don’t ponder too much on it, just enjoy your lovely boy.

Honestly I would call this very unusual. I have only known a couple of children like this. But I would caution against believing that he is G&T. The truth is (unless they displays talents that are beyond the ability of most adults) it won't be clear whether they are gifted or not until adolescence. Whatever you do tell him he is gifted. If he turns out to be nothing more than an early bloomer it will be quite difficult for him to deal with the pressure. He sounds incredibly sweet. Well done for being so attentive.

He sounds bright, but honestly it's too early to tell more than that, and there's no need to do more anyway. Some children master skill earlier than others, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they end up streets ahead overall. Children who walk at 9 months don't end up "super-walkers" compared to children who walk at 24 months.

He's learning and enjoying himself right now so why do more? If anything, very bright children need encouragement to develop their social and emotional skills in parallel with intellectual ones and not lean too hard into academics.

He sounds very bright. Just keep doing what you’re doing- it’s obviously worked so far!

One thing I am very glad I bought for mine, who are both musical, is a really good quality, properly in tune,nice sounding xylophone. It was expensive, but it’s still in use, being recorded and sampled 20 years on!

All good advice - thanks.

We go to playgroup 5x per week and he is interested in other children, but seems drawn to the ones he can't keep up with (3yos running round shrieking) or who don't see him trying to make friends because they're too much in their own little world (4 yo doing something highly complicated in sandpit with water, pipes etc). So he's not quite there yet with playing with others, but also he doesn't look like he has ASD in terms of social interactions. He is quite articulate about feelings, both of his own and describing others'.

He just sounds like a normal bright child. Loads of children are attracted to/hero-worship slightly older ones.

Just enjoy him. He clearly doesn't need to be pushed to learn so make sure he has a range of experiences and you're all good here.

yup, they are drawn to risk-takers. Humans were born to take risks and face challenges. Builds confidence.

You may not think you are actively teaching him, but he is learning from the things you are already doing with him. Does it matter whether or not he is gifted? You are already doing a good job of education him, so just keep going with that.
You could start teaching him more actively by getting counters and showing him "one more, one less"., when you read to him, sound out one or two words, getting preschool teaching books, sitting him in front of the teaching programmes on Cbeebies, etc. Just so long as you keep it fun and balance it with other activities.

QueenAravis superwalkers
Damn, I was hoping my DS would be G&T at something.....

Thanks everyone. I'll keep doing what I'm doing!

I think I was probably thinking about/phrasing the question the wrong way. You're right it's too early to say what's going on here, and that the pressure of "giftedness" is precsely what's not needed here, whether or not what he's doing is unusual. I think I was mostly wondering whether there was something I could do that would pick up and run with the learning that he obviously enjoys.

Precocity at particular things does tend to foreshadow later talent, but obviously not all early walkers turn out to be particularly coordinated, just as not all early talkers turn out to be good at learning languages or talking for a living. The good thing about early talking and early literacy is they give a kid the means to take in a lot more information about everything.

DS1 was like this, and went to school reading/doing maths/knowing lots but has struggled this year with the emotional side of things. He gets incredibly frustrated when he can't do something straight away, and he burns through so much energy that he's 'hangry' by break/lunch. The educational psychologist has asked the teachers to remember that even though his cognitive skills are advanced, he needs nurturing and explanations, and has a sensory profile which needs accommodating. Sometimes bright kids find it hard to sit still/listen because their brains are whirring all the time.

DS2 is only saying single unintelligible words at 26 months, so it's definitely the child who decides what they will/won't do - I think we have less influence than we give ourselves credit for!

He sounds very bright and is having lots of fun.
Given you say he’s a bit slower in the physical stuff, perhaps it’s worth switching a toddler group for a tumble tots/baby gym session once a week? Or a swimming session? These might also help with the sleeping as they are very physically active for him.

AlsoOP, children who didn't crawl before they walked can struggle with fine motor skills (writing) so building up his hand strength might be something you can do (play doh etc).

ShackUp, that's interesting. My ds didn't crawl before he started walking, though he was a very early walker. He didn't have problem with fine motor, but did have problem with gross motor skills, which affected his writing.

Do you know the evidence base for the not crawling -> writing problems thing? Where we live HVs used to go on about it a lot, saying kids that didn't crawl would turn out dyslexic and it would be the parents' fault for not teaching hte kid to crawl. But as far as I can tell it's that some kids who don't crawl, don't crawl because they have some specific brain difference that also leads to dyslexia. If there is evidence that it's related to writing difficulty I'd definitely be interested to know!

We will work on fine motor skills, though so far that seems OK (fine manipulation of things - he can play instruments very gently, pick up tiny things, do puzzles; he prefers gently spinning the playdoh knife with one finger, to playing with the playdoh itself - would rather just eat that). He holds a pen ok and usually gets a couple of turns round a spirograph before going off message and scribbling.

Gross motor stuff is under control as (3hr) playgroup is usually a couple of hours of swings, forts, slides, climbing on boxes, rolling round gym mats etc; and we go swimming 3-4 times a week, get him to climb the couch at home, roll him round on beds, tip him sideways etc. This is deliberately to improve gross motor skills, which we noticed were behind a few months ago (well, we noticed he was behind a while back, but subsequently realised there was a lot we could do to improve it).

I thought the crawling/writing connection had been discredited along with Write/Dance and BrainGym

Gosh, this definitely is way beyond bright. Incredible. For context I have a 19 month old, who can say 4 words and a 5 year old who wouldn't know the difference between horizontal and vertical. You aren't going to like what I'm about to say though and I'm sorry in advance, but I wouldn't rule out ASD from your description. Being advanced with speech and reading is a symptom (hyperlexia) and good eye contact doesn't rule it out. The fixation on spinning things also sounds like a red flag. I think it would be very unusual to be so advanced and not have social and communication difficulties. Having said that, my friends son could read as a toddler and had a great memory, but at 11 is now behind in school. But it sounds like he's more advanced than he was. I'd suggest getting in touch with HV to discuss.

I meant to say being a poor sleeper and (comparatively) behind with motor skills is another red flag.

My ds is really bad sleeper, and tested for ASD at 2, though outcome was inconclusive. He is very sensitive to other people's feelings, and didn't have any problem with eye contact.
He is quirky and different, but at 10, he isn't having major issue at school. He looks relatively normal. (Though he has massive melt down at home.)
He was definitely hyperlexic. We are not pursuing diagnosis at the moment, but just keeping an eye on it.

I think he sounds incredibly bright and must be such a pleasure to be around.

Why are people mentioning ASD? There doesn't seem any reason to think this atm.

The crawling/dyslexia link is pretty tenuous. It comes up on checklists for suspected dyslexia, but only as correlation type of question. It certainly isn't diagnostic.

I didn't crawl and I have lovely handwriting. Dd didn't crawl and her handwriting is very poor.
Your ds sounds very bright and engaged. Carry on doing what you're doing!

I think ASD is possible, but (luckily) it's probably not going to be a defining feature of his life.

We know several kids who were bright toddlers and are now slightly quirky, highly academic kids who may or may not benefit from knowing about how to manage ASD traits. We know a few kids who are less bright but have a few ASD traits that may or may not really mean much. We also know several kids with ASD diagnoses, and two who have probable ASD but are generally functioning OK in the world.

I have a diagnosis of mild autism (which has subsequently been questioned by numerous ed psychs and two psychiatrists) and was hyperlexic. I also have the inattentive form of AD(H)D, very mildly.

Thus, i have a reasonable amount of experience in seeing how people with ASD traits develop over time.

Having looked at M-CHAT-R/F, he could score 4, or he could score 0, depending on one's frame of reference.

I think at this stage, DS probably falls into the first category that i described above, or maybe the second. He is probably similar to me, someone who doesn't follow the crowd and has a few specific sensory dislikes and contexts where he finds it impossible to think straight.

But all I've really needed is a supportive environment, and the understanding (based on knowing about ASD) that most people look at things a bit differently from the way I do. We can give him that. There is no intervention or help available where we are, bar a few introductory workshops that explain stuff like autism isn't always rain man and isn't caused by MMR...