Does this look like giftedness, or besotted mother with too much time to notice stuff?

[668neighbour]

Genuinely asking the question in the title.

If it is more gifted-looking, any suggestions as to what to do? We live somewhere with no specialist programmes for G&T kids. So anything I do will be me supplementing a mediocre local private school education.

DS (21 months) has been speaking in sentences since about age 17 months, and able to read a few favourite words for a while. He was pointing out the relevant letters in the alphabet up on his wall, referring back to Peepo (a favourite book, read every night) at about 16-17 months. He has books with alphabets in and sometimes will go on a hunt for a favourite letter "where's my little q". At 18-19 months ish I realised that if I wrote out the main words from his favourite books, he knew what they were (Gruffalo, Stick Man, Mr Frumble, Lowly, etc.). He points out words where there is no obvious context - eg "music shop" written on an otherwise blank wall.
At 19 months he demonstrated he knows digits by walking round the street reading the (digits of) house numbers on the letterboxes, though he'd probably known them a lot longer. He knew colours at about 15 months.

He gets concepts like vertical vs. horizontal straight away (they were today's favourite new thing to point out) and re-applies them correctly in other contexts.

He can tell you the story of each of his favourite books, in his own way - eg Gruffalo's Child (mix of book and film) "Squirrel footprints. Mummy squirrel says No, too small. Little Gruffalo hedgehog squeaky. Daddy gruffalo grumpy, why not why not, big bad mouse after you. [etc.]". Favourite books are things like the Julia Donaldsons, Where the wild things are, Peter Rabbit, Benjamin Bunny, Jeremy Fisher, Mrs Tiggywinkle, and anything and everything by Richard Scarry. He loves the Usborne First Thousand Words book - knows everything in there and will spend ages pointing things out. He was intrigued when I got out the French one, and French Beatrix Potters, last week.

He recognizes tunes when they're played or sung out of context. He only sings one tune, but it's correct. He used to sing a D when I tuned my violin (it hasn't been out of its case in months - I should get it out). He knows the songs of about 20 birds (wren, chaffinch, etc) and will correct us if we give the wrong name - this is from those books that have the recordings and pictures of the birds - he can also identify about 10 of these in real life (haven't ever seen the other ones).

He absolutely loves things that spin, and different notes - so his favourite youtube material ever is watching change ringing filmed in a belfry with bells turning round on wheels, and making nice patterns of notes. Favourite thing at the local museum is the anemometer on the roof, which he spontaneously remembered at 19 months after a 3 month gap, and ran over to the correct window saying "where's my hammer motor?"

We haven't actively taught him any of this - I half-heartedly started with a few flashcards around 18 months but was too lazy/sleep deprived to do it consistently. The only things we've done consistently are read with him, many books per day; and play lots of music (classical and jazz), recordings and on piano/recorders/guitar/violin. As of the past week I am trying to read one book in French per day as well.

He's also an absolutely terrible sleeper (seems to not need to sleep after about 1am), throws the most spectacular screeching tantrums (often because he's really tired by the time we're at playgroup at 10am), and is terrible at task switching. He walked at 13 months but only learnt to crawl and get up off the floor last week at 21 months, so is a long way behind his peers in climbing, running and jumping.

Opinions very welcome, and particularly suggestions of resources.

Btw that was an unintentional dripfeed. I wasn't thinking about anything other than hyperlexia until autism was mentioned, and had discounted it, as the hyperlexic, autistic kid we know looked so different from DS at this stage.

I would just keep on feeding on whatever his interest is. Sounds like you have everything covered.

Yeah as you are aware, hyperlexia and ASD are very strongly correlated. I’m another one with that combo. But that’s not what you were asking about.

I grew up to be very bright although not amazingly academically successful (I mean, good, but not brilliant.). I make my living from my language skills so there’s that!

Sod’s law says that there will be at least one grammatical error in this post

For the resources, Nrich maths site is have great ideas.
nrich.maths.org/

Also this site has list of great websites.
gws.ala.org/

This site is great too.
www.pitara.com/

My ds enjoyed using lots of Montessori type educational toys.

I'm the parent of an exceptionally gifted child, and know/ or know of approx 300
The main thing you need to be aware of as they grow is their behaviour.
They can be such hard work and can be a sn in itself.
It soon becomes apparent that it isn't what they can do but how they/you manage their ability.
For now leave him be, wait until you have a problem and then look at ways of managing.
it's the same as any other challenging aspects of parenting, and just like none gifted children don't come with a manual, neither do gifted children.

this is really intersting. I did not know there was a poss link between crawling/writing. - I am going to go and google this !!
my ds10 never ever crawled, instead cruised early and walked across the room on his own at 10mths. He has dysgraphia/dyspraxia. He is being assessed for HFA. but it is so mild that we would not have him assessed at all if it wasn't for his dysgraphia. He is the reason I have joined this group as he has high iq.

my second son was great at crawling and walked later-12mths. his motor skills seem fine so far (he is being assessed for more classic ASD) but i suspect his iq will be low.certainly not like his older bro.

my 3rd son is only a toddler. but he also did not crawl and started walking 10.5 months. - so will be interesting to see if he also has motor skill issues like his older non crawling brother. Thankfully he is not showing any ASD signs yet and he isn't showing those signs of high iq like my oldest son was at this age.
I think my hubby is sl HFA.
your sons skills do sound v unusual. think you have an exciting time ahead of you watching his personality and mind grow.

A chat at playgroup today revealed there is apparently a local "gifted" group that keeps a low profile. Mum who's had kids in it says that most of them started from the same position as I'm in, which is being unsure of whether I should be phoning up the gifted group, the national autism society, or both, or neither...

He certainly sounds like a bright spark but do you think you might be overthinking this?
You’re not sure if you should be be proud or looking at autism groups!
He’s not even 2 yet!
I would say let him do his thing (and you sound like you do) when he’s 4 and goes to school you’ll soon see where he’s going.
Chances are you’ve got a genius on your hands but remember he needs a childhood too

He sounds very like my eldest dd, who actually turned out to be least ‘officially’ gifted (is now studying microbiology), but does seem to have a couple of traits of ds1 (his official dx is add inattentive with some asd traits) - he is a maths genius at 16 but doesn’t see the point of doing coursework/ homework as it is repetitive and boring. He can ace it in tests, and knows far more than is tested, but his general marks in school are average because he has zero interest in performing by churning out homework.
My second dd is the most formally gifted and taught herself to read at about the same age - but she has cerebral palsy, didn’t walk unaided until 6/7 and has been a keyboard user since yr1. She also has OCD and anxiety disorders. My girls are people pleasers and do far better in a school system that rewards compliance. Ds1 is actually head and shoulders naturally above them in his specific niche, but he has to figure out how to make that work for him in a system that rewards repetition and displaying the same skills across contexts.
At 2? I love them all. Kids are sponges. Such fun! I wouldn’t be racing to dx anything tbh. With one gifted NT kid, and two 2e kids, they will all do their own thing just enjoy it.

Thanks! I definitely am enjoying it and doing everything i can to feed his sponge-like brain. He seems to be enjoying it too

@Aintnothingbutaheartache I'm not sure how familiar you are with Autism, but the point of tests like M-CHAT is that diagnosis and intervention are thought to be appropriate from 18 months. The reason I originally posted was to try to work out if there was something obvious i was missing that he could benefit from. If he needs intervention of one kind or another, he's already at the age where it's appropriate. I don't think that's overthinking and depriving him of a childhood. If you meant I am trying to force him to do academic stuff more suited to a schoolchild, as I've already said above, I'm not forcing this, it's coming from him. He's teaching himself to read. I think encouragement is the appropriate response since it will open up huge new areas of imagination and communication.

OP just wanted to say that I’ve got a 31 monther who sounds pretty identical to yours at the same age. I haven’t got any words of wisdom (still also trying to work out whether to call NAS or gifted soc or neither ) but wanted to say you’re not alone! He’s now properly reading, and still has the hyperlexic letter love. Although recently he’s reverted to his first true love which is numbers. Socially who knows. It’s too young to tell what his pragmatics are going to be like, so for now I’m trying to gently make him aware of people and their interactions. If I didn’t I do worry that because he’s so in love with letters and numbers at the moment, that things are getting missed. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s on the spectrum. His learning curve has been so extreme it’s clear he’s not neurotypical. Just need to see what form the atypicality will take. No official ASD in my or DH’s families that I know of, although quite a few very bright and quirkies, so if it is ASD/2e I’ll be navigating without a map. But hopefully I’ll meet he right people along the way somehow or another. In the meantime I just wanted to wave and wish you well.

DS1 who is now 11 was very much like yours is although he didn’t utter a word until he was 2 and 3 months. At which point he suddenly started talking like a grown up (no baby language etc) he had always been obsessed with books so when he started talking we realised he could read anything you gave him.
Before then he was amazing at puzzles, and obsessed with wheels etc. He could from an extremely young age point out any shape/colour etc.
He was a very early walker (confidently walking at 9 months) so I am interested in the link between no crawling and poor handwriting as his has always been awful.

When he started school his literacy was assessed as age 14+ and his maths skills were advanced for his age.
However although he has no problems with eye contact etc he had no interest in playing with the other kids. He would rather have his head in a book. His physical skills eg catching a ball etc were always behind as he had no interest in that.

He doesn’t cope well with sudden change although he has got better but he needs notice before changing activity etc and always need to know what the plan is etc.

He was assessed for ASD but in the end it was decided that although he will always have lots of traits, he copes so well in everyday life that his life isn’t affected enough to need intervention.

Age 11 and going to secondary school he is still miles ahead academically ( and bored for the past couple of years at primary) but his social skills have really improved and his has a lovely group of friends now they are also interested in talking politics and science etc!

Mainly we just let him lead, if he was currently obsessed with space we got him space books and took him to the space centre, if it was Romans and he wanted to plot the rise and fall of the Roman Empire on a map we let him, if it was trains we took him to London and let him take us around on the underground and plan our journeys etc
We’ve never made him sit down and so School Work as such, just made sure that what ever he was interested in was catered for.

Thanks for the messages Good to hear others' stories. I think DS can read more than I thought: we got We're Going on a bear hunt this morning in the post (he hadn't seen the book but has seen the film). He pointed to the words bear hunt on the cover and said "going bear hunting!" then went through the first few pages finding "bear hunt" and pointing them out. He also seems fascinated by the foreign-language versions of various books that we have at home or at playgroup, looking from the English to the other copy and pointing at the text saying "different Wild Things!" (or whatever the book is)

He certainly sounds very clever. My dd is very gifted and wasn't much older than your son when she learnt to recite books by heart, so you seem right on track. She didn't crawl either and physically couldn't walk for a long time after she should have. You seem to be doing the right things with your son. For my dd there was a local gifted and talented program and the grammar school system, but if this doesn't happen near you your dd may even be put up a year when he's older, you never know! If it's something you really wanted you could try for a scholarship to a private school with smaller class sizes that could push him more when he's older? I hope you do well and your ds certainly sounds clever.

I would second what silverflowers suggested, looking into your schooling options and considering whether your local schools can cater for a gifted or even just very academic child or whether you might find you have to move to an area with more options education wise. My children are just above average clever but would stand out at our local primary school which last year had not a single child working at greater depth and not a single child identified as 'gifted' ( gifted according to school policy meaning 'making faster than expected progress', not being a genius). Luckily we are in a position to send them to good preps where they are academically and musically average. One boy at my dd's school is 8 and just gained grade 6 with distinction on 2 instruments and is now taking his math GCSEs. He is obviously considered to be one of the clever ones, but the school has experience of dealing with such talented pupils and there are other children who, if slightly older, are even more advanced and skilled and together they can take part in musical and academical enrichment programs. Plus it is normal for children to be accelerated and skip certain year groups if appropriate, so gifted children who skip a year or even two don't end up being the youngest in their class and socially left out because of their age/hight. There are certainly state and private options out there (and scholarships) that could make him feel 'normal' and stretched in a school environment, rather than bored and like the odd one out, which would worry me. My very clever husband always mourns his school years as he felt very different from his peers at his comp and so didn't make any close friends. Luckily he was ace in games and sports otherwise he probably would have been bullied as being academic wasn't something that made you popular. It was only when he went up to Oxbridge and down an analytical career path that he started to feel that he could easily connect with others. And dh is only very clever, nothing on that level that you describe. Good luck, you sound like you will be doing the best for your ds. Lucky boy!

Thanks Silverflowers and NellyBarney. I suspect I may end up homeschooling after we've tried a local state school and found it wanting.

Local schooling is a bit of a disaster where we are, as state schools are all being more or less forced to become "Modern learning environments" - ie 80 kids and 2 or 3 teachers in a big room with beanbags, no desks, kids on iPads lying on the floor, teachers teaching small groups while the others do "independent learning" - which could be wonderful with the right kids, right teachers, right resources and right room, but in fact is usually noisy, unmitigated chaos and completely educationally ineffective.

The only alternative options are a mediocre prep school that caters to money but not educational standards, and a Steiner school that has a roll of about 15 and the equivalent of an Ofsted 4/inadequate.

More interestingly, today he came up with something that made me wonder what's going on in that little fuzzy head. I was talking about a soft toy having blue eyes, and asked him what colour his eyes are. He thought for a bit, then said "No see [name]'s eyes." Then after a little bit he said "Get Mummy phone. See [name] eyes."

i genuinely don't know at what age a kid would come up with those concepts, but I'd have thought probably a bit older for the "I can't see my own eyes"?

i would hazard photographic memory. Definitely a big help when it comes to exams!

Hello! It's been really fascinating reading about your son - it's the first time Ive come across a toddler so similar to my own (with the exception that mine was a late talker) It's also been hilarious to see the number of people compelled to pour water on his obvious intelligence and say that his behaviour 'sounds normal' - it clearly isn't! Tbh, your DS sounds extremely advanced and he also has an amazing mum who has given him such a rich environment of love and learning opportunities. He'll have been capitalising thoroughly on all of it.

My DS is a bit different to yours as he seems advanced in some things and somewhat behind in others. But he's loved numbers since he was 8 months old, letters from about ten months, recognised a lot of favourite words from around 16/17 months, and has clearly memorised his entire library (before he could talk, he'd shake his head when I got something wrong- now at nearly 2 he recites large chunks from them himself). At about 14 months he started noticing that 6 can be turned upside down to make 9, Z put on its side to make N etc. He loves clocks, and seems to be picking up Roman numerals. But he's never been great at or particularly interested in puzzles (seems to lack dexterity - his dad is gifted but dyspraxic so it might be connected to that), has never built a tower, has no interest in normal toddler toys like ride ons (our Scuttlebug is woefully neglected), or swings, or cars etc, won't self-feed, and until last month had a massive shoe phobia. So quite a quirky chap. His real loves have always been numbers and letters - he's always especially loved the number ten and loves counting in various languages. He seems hyperlexic and we too were worried about ASD when he was younger, but tbh he really doesn't seem on the spectrum at all now. He loves to show us thibgs, include us in his enjoyment of jokes, is getting more sociable (though a natural introvert), has always had good eye contact etc. His HV isn't at all concerned.

We too are starting to wonder what to do about school, as our local schools (primary and secondary) aren't up to much and have huge class sizes. A local friend of mine with two very intelligent daughters said that our local primary actually has a policy of not allowing the top children to get ahead of the others, and refused to give her daughters work appropriate to their abilities on principle. I know that school is just as much about social interaction and friendships etc, especially for quirky gifted kids who might struggle in those areas, but still. We have the option of a Gaelic Medium
unit, which I'm thinking would provide extra stimulation and has a very small cohort, but it's a bit of a commute. Home education just seems exhausting for the parent.

Well, this has been a long ramble, apologies for any incoherence. I really just wanted to say hi, your DS sounds wonderful!

I should add that I too don't necessarily assume that my DS is gifted on the basis of his interests. Unlike your son, mine has always taken his time with milestones so never seemed especially quick or above average. It's the strength of his interests, and the fact that they're quite bookish, that makes him unusual - though not necessarily smarter. I just want him to be happy, whatever his abilities.

Oh, and it's probably worth looking around the Steiner school yourself before you write it off entirely, given that Ofsted and Steiner sometimes don't see eye to eye on what constitutes a good education. I wish we had a Steiner primary locally. There's a tiny secondary one, which may or may not have closed down by the time DS is old enough. One great thing about it is that children can take exams when/if they feel ready - be that earlier or later than in mainstream schools. And there's a lot of outdoor learning too, which is great for busy / easily bored minds.