That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

noble thanks for that link, I think my kids will enjoy those too. I have little formal maths training (some self-taught statistics and coding that I use in my work - which rather shockingly makes me better at both stats and coding than any of my chemistry and materials sciences PhD colleagues!!!) - but I enjoy puzzles like that.

My 12 year old is also a self-taught coder (he taught himself some C++) - I'm not able to help much as my coding knowledge starts and ends with VBA, so he has to use Internet resources. Neither of my children have shown any particular interest in moving ahead of the formal school maths programme, so this has never been a particular issue for us. But we have been lucky in that they have had almost uniformly good maths tuition at secondary school. And maybe they are just not that gifted at maths - I think it can be very difficult to assess mathematical ability before the later years at high school, as in my experience, being good at primary school arithmetic - and even lower secondary school maths - is not necessarily a terribly good predictor of mathematical ability.

My ds doesn't have that kind of attitude, and he really likes to please the teacher.
He doesn't really complain. He knows we had a meeting beginning of the year, and knows that's what they can do. I think I realised I am more concerned him becoming even more complaisant and coast through instead of learning to be persistent and resilient.

That was me noble. Nothing you have said leads me to believe your teaching is like mine was, but I had the attitude you describe. I started out believing question 3 would be interesting. But spending many hours turning to the interesting questions, and realising they were pretty straight forward and doing any that appealed whilst the teacher was still explaining the worked example prior to question one, killed that belief. So chances are if you'd come along in y10 and truthfully said my question 3 is challenging, I would have just thought 'here we go again'.

noble Dds primary did deal with her appropriately. Which in her case meant not confining her to the level appropriate for the majority. They did plenty outside the nc too, but same as at home, you can't just avoid concepts normally introduced at an older age.

Early years primary are used to making provision for kids that can do basic addition and subtraction. But speaking to others since, many aren't either equipped or willing to provide for kids well beyond that.

irvine I've had a look at the IXL stuff you said your DS is working through, and tbh I'd knock that on the head straight away. I don't know whether it's any better when you sign up for an account but all I can see on the website is a bunch of closed questions and a box to type in your answer, the most dispiriting sort of thing. Nothing that encouraged any sort of pen and paper problem-solving - they even had constructing the perpendicular bisector of a line by clicking points on a screen, which is useless for a kid who will need to do it with a pair of compasses. Fine for a bit of practice alongside proper tuition, perhaps, but not to replace it.

What coding is he doing?

Has he played Minecraft? Lots of potential for logical thinking there. My 6year old was building AND and NOT gates in Minecraft the other day, his Minecraft magazine even had instructions for XNOR gates.

Oh, also mathematical toys.

The most mathematical family I know have the biggest set of Polydron I have ever seen, and use it to construct and discuss really very complex polyhedron models.

They also have a copy of Polyhedron Models, a book similar to one I coveted as a teenager.

(There are also Youtube and other tutorials for making polyhedron models through origami, which DD in particular adores)

They would also recommend Murderous Maths.

"My 12 year old is also a self-taught coder (he taught himself some C++) "

When 12yo DD heard about the recent moves towards having more 'computing' in primary she made quite a fuss about having missed out on that. Since she is now in Y8 I'm expecting another not-fair-missed-out protest next half-term when in principle the free BBC micro:bits will be delivered to all Y7 children. You should be able to buy them by-and-by and there are alternatives like the Raspberry Pi Zero, so I can help fix that. I even have a cunning plan re. coding, but my pre-requisite is a decent amount of algebra so we're back on that maths ladder.

"Has he played Minecraft?"

Careful. It can be quite difficult to get some children to stop playing MineCraft and go to bed etc.

Noble, he is doing IXL only because we were once told by the teacher that he has a gap in knowledge, and I just don't want him to miss anything he need to know before going up to next level. I know it's boring, but he loves it, and he only does 1 a day. It's just meant to be a back up.
He spend more time on khan, there he watches video and do what ever problem he wants. He does puzzles and love watching VI Hart video there, so not just doing calculating stuff. Also he learns other subject there too.
He sometimes do nrich, but it seems to come and go. He spend days on it, and leave it for a while and start again. He need to be patient, but he isn't. So I think he prefers the quick answer question, and I know he should do more of problem solving instead. We will work on that.

He started learning python but not so keen(He has done the basics), he still prefers javascript, and he is stuck at the moment, on advanced level.
He still does some coding everyday. He isn't a fan of minecraft.

Minecraft being addictive isn't a reason to not let your kids play it!

DS plays pocket edition on the Hudl. We've got a timer set on the Hudl so it switches off after an hour and that's it for the day. No arguments!

irvine I did worry that your DS is addicted to the quick answer - IXL will feed that very nicely, enter the answer, press submit and get a nice "Brilliant" as a reward. That can be quite addictive but it's fairly mindless, like playing Candy Crush. Only doing stuff you find easy, for a quick rush isn't building the resilience needed to do proper maths - Andrew Wiles spent 7 years proving Fermat's Last Theorem, and then when it was wrong, another 2 patching the proof.

When he does nrich, does he actually spent time (as in 20 minutes+) struggling with a problem, with pencil and paper? Or is he just flicking through and looking up the answer if he can't get it immediately?

What does he do with Python and JavaScript? It sounds a bit heavy for a, how old is he? 7? year old.

"Minecraft being addictive isn't a reason to not let your kids play it!"

6yo? Well don't come running back here in a few years with your tail between your legs saying you weren't warned!

Is my DS unique in getting addicted to all his activities? It doesn't matter whether he is playing Minecraft, building with Lego, playing with his cars and dinos, drawing or reading, it is always a battle to get him to stop and move on. Banning things he got addicted to would leave him with nothing to do but torment his sister (which he is also addicted to). He is a small child of intense focus and deep passions .

That's entirely possible, Pique

pique your DD might be interested in some of the stuff on this website shop.pimoroni.com/collections/kids

DS just got one of these (from kickstarter) which I think will keep him busy for a while.

shop.pimoroni.com/products/flotilla-mega-treasure-chest-starter-kit

dd has always had deep obsessions, different species of oak trees was probably her oddest one. If she is interested in some thing she studies it until she can find no more to learn about it, then moves on to the next thing. In many ways this has made our lives easier, but it has made for some very boring museum trips! So I wouldnt be too worried about minecraft, if they do get hooked, it will pass.

As far as I can tell, lots of DS's classmates also play Minecraft so it gives them something to talk about and play. If he didn't play he'd be excluded from those conversations. I was a bit worried when he hated football so it's good he's got something to bond with other children about.

Just checking back to see if we're still talking about Maths..........

"If the answer is n-rich or UKMT or whatever, why not give it to them when they're bored in class?"

As several of us who actually teach have already said on this thread - we do. Or rather, we plan to give them BEFORE a child gets bored, but AFTER they have demonstrated (briefly) that they are competent at the basics of what is being done that day.

So last week we were revisiting (after a break for other topics) a topic / type of calculation that I knew some children had mastered, while some still needed further teaching / further practice.

First activity was a small number of questions of very rapidly increasing difficulty, which I observed them doing.

The responses to these very rapidly sorted the class into groups - those who needed re-teaching, those who needed more work at specific levels, and those who had mastered the calculation and needed further work on application of it in a variety of problem-solving contexts.

I had work at all of those levels ready, so everyone started at the appropriate level for them. I re-taught the group who really needed it, then gave them independent work to complete under the expert guidance of my TA, and for some children with the additional aid of concrete resources. I then spent some time with the 'advanced' group, to see whether all were happy with the process of 'application', and to move some more rapidly on to more open-ended 'exploration / genuine reasoning' work - sometimes from nrich, sometimes from other sources.

In the meantime, the middle groups were progressing through the graduated work I had prepared, though there was one step that was a 'jump that needed teaching', so I then taught the group for who that was 'the next step, and gave them exercises on it to complete.

I don't always have to do the 'assessment' step, as frequently, mid-topic, it is simply the previous day's work. Sometimes the assessment will be in the form of a 'what mistake has been made here', or an 'application type' problem, or an 'explain why', to ensure that understanding is deep and isn't just 'competence at cranking the handle and finding the answer'.

The groups who need, or will be assigned, 'teaching input' will vary, and in some areas the class will fall into a smaller number of less-dispersed groups. But the above is fairly typical.

thats a lot of work you are having to plan teacher!

3-4 level differentiation within every Maths lesson is pretty standard in primary, OYBK. I used to do 5 level for my p6 (as in, around the level of Recep

Tbh, it was pretty easy for that lesson, because the different levels are quite well-known and predictable - for calculations, they are often related to number of digits, presence or absence of 0, use of decimals, same or different numbers of digits / decimal places in each number in the calculation, and there are many interactive sites which will create work within those kinds of parameters, as well as a variety of suitable textbook materials. Experience and pedagogical knowledge helps a lot, too, because you get to know where the 'sticking points' are.

Differentiating e.g. symmetry, data analysis etc is more time-consuming.

Oops, missed a bit. i had a particularly widespread class one year - p6 (c. level of reception or a little lower) to 4c (almost Y6 level) in Maths, and that meant 5 way differentiation, but that is relatvely unusual. it's more common to have 3-4 level and then differentiate within that by support or equipment.

Other schools - e.g. mrz's school, which uses Big Maths - will tend to keep children together much more. it's a strategic decision as well as a school 'philosophy'.

Noble, if the question clicks his interest, he can take time on it. He once spend more than 2 hours solving a question from nrich, going through every possibility, writing down all the answer excessive of 5 pages.
He did coding on khan, so he is into making his own game strategy books for favourite game using javascript, making cooking(his another passion) blog pages with html and css.
Or just random art with jQuery. Python he done it with a book from library, + some online course to make some factorial program. He hasn't finished the part writing Fibonacci function yet.
I have to admit he gives up easily if it doesn't interest him. He is 8 now.

Teacherwith2kids, I think my ideal situation would be DC in your class Other teachers on the thread have said that it's not their job to teach the most able students and parents should be paying for this to happen at home, some even seem to think this should be happening without any actual maths being done at all.
Re proving they can do it - we've had some issues with this where the syllabus is requiring manipulatives and DC have simply moved on from that stage. DS apparently 'didn't understand multiplication' because he was reluctant to draw out five rows of ten things long after he understood counting in 10s and multiplication generally (but while drawing anything was still a massive chore for him). I don't think that's arrogance, more bewilderment.