That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

I do think, however, that Scotland might have been different? Certainly the PR suggests that education in Scotlqnd has always been better than in the rest of GB.

Bertrand, I think that may well be true - though the new Curriculum for Excellence isn't entirely a good thing in some ways...

Then it's a Scottish - English difference because I am describing the outcome of the research I did in the 80s and '89 or '90. I thought about teaching twice and so I found out what the requirements were (both times) and really gave it some serious consideration.

I must say that, despite the glass ceiling, which I do recognise as a real thing, education in general seems so very much better now than it was when I was at school. DD is only in Y4, so not much to go on so far, but she at least gets some differentiation (whereas I was in a class of 36 with no differentiation at all). I am absolutely sure that doing stuff that is a bit too easy with some nods towards appropriate work is much better than what I got- eg for my DD, some children work with a secondary school teacher once a week for maths, ordinary state primary, high SEN, high EAL, high FSM. Whereas in my leafy green affluent primary in the 70s, we all just did the same which must have been even more miserable for the children at the bottom end of the class than it was for me at the top.

Michael Give seemed to me to be trying to recreate the key elements of the education that he and I would have both received in Scotland. I recognized a lot of what he proposed. I think it was better than my kids get today in England. However, he seemed to be universally detested by teachers.

Michael Gove is the reason that teachers are leaving in droves. Whatever his new curriculum promises (and a lot of it is bad, see concerns about the new maths A-level above), the loss of thousands of experienced teachers is devastating to education.

The national curriculum has broken down because academies can set their own curriculum. Having no curriculum in the 80s meant that I did one period of history several times over due to moving schools. However given Gove's grammar, times tables, poetry recitation and teaching history in chronological order the distintegration of the national curriculum may be no bad thing. Children need to be interested in what they do - let them write a story and then go through each sentence and ask them to correct the grammar or teach them a foreign language and then they will see why they need grammar and learn it as they go along. Let them use their times tables to work out whether they are being cheated by special offers in shops Find the periods of history interesting to young children. Also teaching this way children can find their own level and you don't get one extreme being completely lost and at the other end being completely bored

One of my exams the teacher did not follow the syllabus closely and I did worse in it than expected but its the only subject where I remember everything the teacher taught us and it has influenced my thinking to this day.

Teacher subject specialisms are also breaking down as school are finding it harder to find teachers or afford teachers.

Whenever the government reduces taxes overall and particularly for the rich they are transferring funds from state to private schools. Most children who go to private schools already have very privileged backgrounds so this is deeply wrong. However to understand this moral position this one probably needs a high EQ rather than IQ unfortunately.

OK, losing vast numbers of experienced teachers is awful. Maybe even a catastrophe. But why exactly are they leaving? Which change or combination of changes is promoting the exodus?

Grammar, times tables, poetry recitation and chronological history all feature heavily in the French system our DC have been/are going through. Since they are all doing exceptionally well, it looks like a good recipe to me.

It's the ever-increasing workload that's causing teachers to leave. See e.g. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/the_staffroom/2558611-Is-it-too-soon-to-leave-teaching?

Curriculum changes contribute to increasing workload by themselves, a massive amount, in fact. Performance related pay contributes to workload and there's a good chance you don't even get the pay rise. Extra testing. Scrapping levels and saying that schools have to come up with their own reporting systems (such a fucking stupid idea).

If people thought the curriculum changes were good then they might work through the pain, but I have several fundamental disagreements about what they are doing to the maths curriculum which make it very difficult to keep carrying on.

I think it might be worth noting that companies contribute a huge amount of tax revenue - so its not all a rich-poor dynamic.

Actually I don't know where to start on your post! Anyone else fancy explaining why letting the children choose what to study probably doesn't mean you'll get one clear answer about what to study or how deeply to study it?

That was to eyebrowse

Though I suppose that teachers who do not themselves master grammar, times tables, poetry recitation and chronological history might not like their job if they are required to teach those things.

How does perf related pay increase workload? Surely its do your best. The better you are, the more you'll get paid?

I'm not sure about performance related pay for teachers. There are a lot of variables to pupil outcomes over which teachers have little or no control.

The better you are, the more you'll get paid?

Hahahahhahaaaaah.

No.

This year I applied for a pay rise. I had to fill a lever arch file with evidence that I actually do my job. It took bloody forever.
There's pressure on schools in terms of budgets, staffing is the highest cost. Therefore schools do not want to award pay rises to teachers and can now make it really difficult for them.

Apparent reasons: "workload (76%) and unhappiness with the quality of leadership (43%)."

My upper-KS2 teaching friend blames the latter for the majority of former i.e. I'm told they're always finding new useless stuff to waste her time and endlessly nit-picking over irrelevant crap in their little blame-culture.

She went through an Ofsted a little while ago and said that's the first time in a couple of years she has been praised. I can't repeat the anecdotes, but it sounded like the HMI she talked to re. her subject leadership was a rather good one who really has cut out the crap they're all supposed to have dropped.

var123 I don't think its necessary to have a low tax environment (in other words highly paid company executives) to build successful companies. English footballers get paid huge amounts and when did we last win the world cup? In fact higher taxes mean better qualified staff and more ability to help fledgling companies.

bobochick I think its an interesting point about the French system being ideal from Gove's point of view. I think there are cultural differences between British (probably US Australian are similar to UK) culture and elsewhere (there was a documentary last year when Chinese teachers were brought into a respected comprehensive and were shocked at the differences). However I think its generally accepted from educational psychology that children learn best when things are in context and when things interest them. If more children are engaged in their learning then they will progress more which would mean that gifted and talented children have more peers so can have a more enjoyable school experience.

You apply for a pay rise??? Apply?! Honestly, the mind boggles!

Your SLT should be working out who to spend money on based on who they most want to stay.

I think UK teacher's work load is massive. I only know primary, but I was surprised at first.
I went to school in two different countries, but biggest difference was
1: school report. It was just grades with few short comments.
2: parents evening. There wasn't any.
3: open door policy. Parents had to make proper appointment to speak to the teacher. They can't just have a quick chat.
4: non existing Respect for teacher from parents. I was shocked to see some parents talking to the teacher like mates, or being very aggressive towards them in public.

Sorry eyebrows I just don't recognize your economic theory. It just doesn't make any sense to me. So its hard to answer.
You have heard of corporation tax?

var I've heard that in some schools they don't want experienced teachers to stay because they're expensive. Rather than paying them more, they manage them out and replace them with cheap NQTs.

You'd have thought SLT would be quite keen on keeping me, an experienced qualified maths teacher with fab results, but I still had to do the massive file of evidence to get a piddly £800 pay rise.

Gifted DC learn best when subjects are taught logically so that the progression is meaningful. Context is not always necessary as abstract reasoning relies increasingly on an underlying knowledge base.

Gifted DC go slightly mad when asked to spend time on meaningless (superficial) tasks where they cannot perceive progress.

Noblegiraffe you are right. It is crazy! You need a coup against your incompetent boss!

Gifted people go mad at silly generalisations.