The glass ceiling for very able children

[var123]

Has anyone else encountered the sense that the school is merely paying lip service to the ideals that they will challenge all children and work to bring all the children in the class to their potential?

I bumped along it a couple of days ago in a face to face conversation with one of the teacher's at my children's secondary.

He was full of buzzwords (like resilience and challenge) but there was a complete vacuum when it came to detail about how he planned to achieve that wrt to my children. In fact, he kept lapsing into telling me how my DC might help the others "by inspiring the less able".

Honestly, has there ever been a human being born into this world, who feels inspired to keep ploughing away at something due to being in the presence of someone who learned to do it without breaking stride?? People who struggle and then succeed are the inspiring ones because they make you feel like if you can do it, then maybe you can too. The ones who always find it easy and are just waiting for you to catch up so they can move on are just disheartening to contemplate.

karen I don't get the impression any of us on this thread are saying 'my child doesn't need to practice x, they can do it at home'. More 'they don't need to practice x, because they were doing it confidently years ago, along with y and z that build on to x'.

If you don't see why there would be logistical issues, feel free to share your solution.

new Some do, more don't.

The first time I ever encountered the "push back" was on the 3rd day ever at school and it was before it had ever occured to me that I'd have to advocate for my children at school. I completely believed and trusted in the system back then! (I hope this will not out me to people who know me in real life).

We lived abroad in a place where the school starting age is 7. Just before DS1 was due to start school abroad, we moved back home to the UK. So Ds1 went straight into Y3, completely missing reception.

I spent a bit of time here and there teaching him to read and do sums. It felt like he learned fast but I didn't have much to compare it to. By the time he started school, DS1 was an avid and fluent reader and we had a mini-library at home with all the books he'd got through. I think a big attraction was books represented child-level entertainment in his mother tongue. He used to spend hours at a time curled up somewhere giggling to himself over the books. He usually read to himself, but when he read aloud, it was fluent and with good expression.

On the third day at school, I went to the classroom door to collect Ds1 as usual. The teacher came out to find me because she wanted to tell me that Ds1 couldn't read! My mum was with me. She still mentions that moment from time to time now. I was shocked and struggling to understand how the teacher got that idea, despite my shock I could sense that I needed to watch my mum as she looked like she was ready to explode with the injustice!

The teacher never revised that opinion. However, somehow, miraculously, without her ever having taught him anything, she felt able to mark him 3a a few months later.

KarenLong - I think you miss the point that his understanding is already very good. It does not need improvement. In fact he just gets it, a bit like you know that B comes after A. When you know it back to front and upside down, you now know it.

As to communication DS2 has been tutoring other children since the age of 6. he already has plenty of experience in this. One child's mother even tried to hire him as a formal tutor last year ahead of the SATS.

However, i suspect you are either unable to understand or simply trying to be inflammatory.

However, i suspect you are either unable to understand or simply trying to be inflammatory.

no, you just don't want to hear the truth. Getting him to explain to someone else is helping him. The idea that he had finished learning to explain at the age of 6 shows quite some level of delusion there!

On the third day at school, I went to the classroom door to collect Ds1 as usual. The teacher came out to find me because she wanted to tell me that Ds1 couldn't read!

that's precisely what I'm talking about - being able to read at home is NOT THE SAME AT ALL as being secure enough in his ability to do the some thing at school away from his mother.

helping him how? To understand it better himself? He already knows it as I said.
To learn how to explain things? He's been explaining things for years.

No, you are the one who doesn't understand or doesn't want to or more likely, you are just trying to annoy.

Reading - pick uip the book, say the words clearly and with expression like you are speaking to someone. Answer questions about what you read afterwards. What else?

I sincerely hope you aren't a teacher.

and you are getting my children confused.

Going to bed now...

karen able kids tend not to go through the same method steps. Therefore what they are explaining is of no benefit to someone who needs those steps outlining. It's only maturity that helps that, not endless repitition of methods that are illogical to you.

I have to really think to explain many aspects of maths in a manner that is easy to follow for anyone who doesn't just 'get' it like I do. Because self explanatory to me, isn't necessarily obvious to someone else. I can do it, but I'm not a child. And I can't say I've ever gained anything in my understanding from explaining it. Would you gain more knowledge of how to work your computer by having to explain how to get online to someone whose never used one before?

I was told in y1 dd didn't fully understand numbers beyond 20, hence sticking to way below her level. Which was outright lies. Then in the next breath complain dd kept turning her number bond worksheets into algebra, and making her own sums during lessons. And admitted that while dd always got the answer right to many things way above 1-20, it was lucky guesses cos y1 just can't do that. Lucky I had a reception teacher, ta and headteacher who weren't afflicted with stupidity, and dd didn't have to spend her year dying of boredom.

var I think karen is one of those teachers.

I have read quite a bit of this thread with interest. The article at this link is I think very relevant and an interesting read: nswagtc.org.au/files/information/gifted_acceleration_WEBSITE_long_version.pdf
It does appear to be based on research in Australia. Based on this and other articles I have read in the past, my understanding is that a good solution for the exceptionally able (the 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10,000 say) is acceleration by moving to a higher age group, and possibly even repeated acceleration for truly exceptional students. I think in the UK this only happens in private schools, and then rarely, but it makes sense, as ability grouping doesn't help children in this category. Also, since a teacher who teaches a mixed ability class of 30 every year may only see 1 such child in her entire career (and even a senior school teacher who teaches her subject to 100 children a year on average only comes across such a child once every 10 years) the teacher is unlikely to have strategies for dealing with this.
For the top 2% of the ability range, ability grouping in a fully comprehensive school can help (as the article suggests) but isn't completely the answer. Even in a school with a large year group - say 200 in the year - the top set compromises say the top 15% of the ability range. On average, there will be 4 kids out of the thirty in the 2% ability bracket. These children are as different IQ wise from the bottom child in the top set (who is still in the "above average" IQ category) as that bottom of the top set child is from the child who's IQ is exactly average. In theory though, this should not be a difficult or novel situation for the teacher - every teacher, every year, is likely to have at least 1 such child in the class.

My own school experience (too long ago and not in the UK or Australia) was of ability grouping along these lines, and some teachers were better at managing the ability range within the top set than others. It also mattered more for some subjects than others; maths being probably the most difficult to teach across a range of abilities. University was a revelation for me - not just socially in terms of meeting others like me, but in the stimulation and challenge of having a peer group of similarly able and indeed more able students and being taught at the right level for me.

Based on this experience, I have been in fortunate to be able to make different choices for my DC, who are at private selective schools. DD1 is in year 7, and very able in maths. Even at her very selective school, maths is in sets, while most other subjects aren't. The ability range in the top set is obviously much narrower since the entire year group is, say, top 15% ability wise. In her top set (pretty much all of whom will have finished primary school L6 in maths) she has a number of similarly able and even more able mathematicians. Interestingly, they only have 2 double maths lessons a week. So instead of getting the able pupils to GCSE level in maths one or more years early, the school covers what is needed each year quickly and has more time for providing teaching in other subjects - Two MFL, Latin, a current affairs class, some philosophy etc. As a result, DD is perhaps not progressing as quickly in maths as her ability suggests she could, but I am fine with that as she is also not bored and enjoying all the new subjects she is doing instead. She is moderately talented in music, sings and plays two instruments, so has plenty else to distract her. Like some others on this thread, I also think it would be counterproductive to teach her more school maths at home.

This has turned into something of an essay, sorry.

Karen - not quite sure what your empirical basis is for the statement "Getting him to explain to someone else is helping him." Is there some data that shows that? Or is that just one of the things they teach you in teacher school that has nothing to back it up.
Personally (and completely anecdotally) the best and most brilliant and creative scientists and artists that I know are often useless at explaining complicated concepts to those of us with normal brains. But that doesn't stop them from excelling at their chosen field.

Karen, "Getting him to explain to someone else is helping him." isn't actually helping anybody, because he is not a good explainer, he can tell me how he got the answer, but sometimes it's even confusing for me. So, the child explained by my ds may get even more confused. And he is not a teacher, he doesn't have to have those skills.

"being able to read at home is NOT THE SAME AT ALL as being secure enough in his ability to do the some thing at school away from his mother."

so if a child can read fluently at home, but can't do it because he is shy, the teacher thinks he can't read at all?

It happened to my ds, teacher didn't realise at first, because he was a selective mute, but my ds's reception teacher was great, he gave him confidence, and made him come out from his shell. Also lucky enough he attended attached nursery, so they had evidence of what he could do. But if it wasn't the case, and teacher was like you, he might have been labelled one of less able children.

I think Karen is a troll. She'll be enjoying the reaction she's getting.

I wish DS1's first teacher (the Y3 one) was also just a troll but she meant it and had the power to follow it through by placing on on the bottom table, which in that school meant the disruptive, immature-for-age children's table and leaving him sitting there all year.

If only I knew then what I knew now!

Teachers come in all shapes and sizes, just like the rest of us. There are the thoughtful ones who go the extra mile to try to apply intelligent solutions to a problem and clearly care for every part of the class, like Teacherwith2kids and Noble, then there's the ones who make pragmatic decisions to do the job as well as they can without knocking themselves out and then there are many other types ranging from excellent to awful.

However, DS1's Y3 teacher was one of a kind. It seemed to really bother her that he'd been home-taught. She made comments about it to me that could only be described as sounding resentful and sour. I got the strong impression that she minded that DS1 arrived knowing how to do things that most of the rest of the class were still learning to do and with good general knowledge too. She complained again and again that she didn't have reports from his previous teacher to use. She seemed to feel that in some way the fact of DS1 was a personal insult against her profession. It was so stupid! Its easy to teach one child who wants to learn and who has complete trust in you and its a whole other skill set to teach 20+ children all at once.

Agree about Karen.

var same mindset as dds y1 teacher. Her view seemed to come from 'if I as an adult teacher can't/ didn't grasp things that quickly, then no child can. If I as an adult need to work through a,b,c,d,e in my head just to find f, then a 6yr old can't just say a, m, z consistently, it must be a trick. (Referring to maths rather than reading)

Also she seemed to think any child outside the average was a personal affront to her lesson planning. Children who needed to write down a, then think, before writing b, then think some more before asking for help were suddenly described as not trying.

One thing that really annoys me about education in general, and particularly in terms of gifted children, is that there is a ton of research and yet schools completely ignore it and spout platitudes which simply aren't true.

So Karen is wrong. There is research on this, which shows that explaining to other children of lower ability has no benefits whatsoever for a gifted/able child. What works best, in terms of group work, is being put with others of similar ability. You'd never get away with ignoring research in medicine, so why education should be different boggles me.

and, going back a bit, teacherwith2kids. We actually had an e) from DD's old school, which was an acknowledgement that they weren't able to teach her and a subtle suggestion that she might be better suited elsewhere. She really did her best, but in a class of 30, with an unusually high proportion of additional needs, she knew that wasn't enough.

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is peer groups. One of the options for DD at secondary (although how we afford it I don't know) is a school like Aprillady describes. I'm worried, a bit, about it being an intellectual pressure cooker, but the real advantage for us is that DD would be in school with children with similar interests etc. I know it's good for her to be able to mix with all sorts of people, but sometimes she is so different from her age peers that I do wish that she had one or two likeminded people. She has similar friends out of school, and that helps enough, but the playground can be hard work sometimes.

"I can't imagine any normal parent with a school offering d) would get as far as even hearing that response, because you wouldn't even be raising concerns warranting an answer."

I'm really glad that you think so . However, there are some parents who do become obsessive about their child's giftedness (it is the same for some children with SEN) and do find it very hard to accept that their child's needs may not be met 100%, 100% of the time - the 'We may well not get it right every day, however hard we try' part.

IME group work is like team sports. If you involve every member, the group/team operates at the level of the weakest member. It can be more efficient to work with fewer members at a higher level.

Opineers, we had an e) for DS too - not from the class teacher, but from the head. She knew we were moving anyway, and since her only solution to the immediate problem (DS had become selectively mute in school through anxiety, as well as being exceptionally able) was a 2-3 year acceleration into the next mixed year class, was honest enough to agree that the alternative (a few months of HE followed by a school move) was almost certainly going to be for the best.

teacher I hear you entirely about the pushy parents. The corollary of that, unfortunately, is that if you do have a 1 in a whatever child, it's really hard to get a school who haven't dealt with that child to believe you. We are starting the rounds of secondary applications, and it becomes clear that when we say 'gifted child, we are going to run into problems, how would you deal with that' they hear 'bright child, pushy parents, here is our holding plan for the top 10%'.

I am now thinking of saying, can we just pretend - even if you don't believe me - that DD is at this level, and you tell me what happens if she is. But if you have any better ways that I can communicate that to teaching staff, I'd love to know.

Our current school is entirely on board and definitely a d), but we do still have the occasional meeting, just to amend provision here and there.

Sorry to hear that about your DS, teacher. Was the anxiety because of the school situation or something else?

Opioneers,

You might go down the 'can you tell me what you have done in the past for children who you have found to be exceptionally able in this subject?' route. It depersonalises it, and makes it about a child that they know and have taught, rather than about the child that they don't know yet?

You may still get the 10% guff, but it would be entirely reasonable to push back a bit and ask about real outliers. If they don't understand the question, you probably have your answer.

(Oddly, another way of finding out about general attitude to outliers is to ask about SEN provision. If the answer that you get back is purely mechanistic, then it is indicative of a certain mentality - whereas if they start telling you enthusiastically about how they really personalise programmes and support, that is in general a more positive indicator of general attitude to 'difference')

thank you. Yes, we have tried that a bit but they still hear 'exceptionally able' as top 10%, mostly. I'll try the SEN route.

Top possibility at the moment is the (state) school who said, oh it's not all about Oxbridge, we've got one child going to university in Vienna to study Old Norse because that was the right course for them. They taught themselves German to do it. I think if they can facilitate that, they are probably quite good at personalising.

Opineers

My experience so far is that the "intellectual pressure cooker" and "hot house" labels DD's school attracts are not warranted. She has been at the school through primary, as has DD2, but I have never felt that the school was pushing too hard, or putting the kids under too much pressure. This applies equally to DD1 and DD2, who, while certainly bright, is not as able as her sister.

Teacher
I think I have been guilty in the past of being the parent who obsessed about their child's ability, and overestimated it, so can recognise what you describe. I have though learnt from experience, and am doing things differently now with my youngest DC.

And do you believe that most improbable story, opioneers?

(Opinion, the other thing to do is what many primaries do in collaboration with parents for the transfer of SEN children - direct contact between the schools well before application for the secondary school takes place. Even if your current school is willing to phone the school you are interested in to give their assessment of your child and their needs before you visit the school (and the latter wold have to be a personalised visit, not an open day) it might well be helpful)