The glass ceiling for very able children

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Has anyone else encountered the sense that the school is merely paying lip service to the ideals that they will challenge all children and work to bring all the children in the class to their potential?

I bumped along it a couple of days ago in a face to face conversation with one of the teacher's at my children's secondary.

He was full of buzzwords (like resilience and challenge) but there was a complete vacuum when it came to detail about how he planned to achieve that wrt to my children. In fact, he kept lapsing into telling me how my DC might help the others "by inspiring the less able".

Honestly, has there ever been a human being born into this world, who feels inspired to keep ploughing away at something due to being in the presence of someone who learned to do it without breaking stride?? People who struggle and then succeed are the inspiring ones because they make you feel like if you can do it, then maybe you can too. The ones who always find it easy and are just waiting for you to catch up so they can move on are just disheartening to contemplate.

She is 10 but I dont know what year, still in primary school, they live in Sydney. The university is a close buddy with the school and mentor some of the top in maths and offer mentoring, tutoring(challenging tutoring in maths) and loads of competition for the top in many maths area. It is a state primary

Unfortunately, when schools are just concentrating on meeting targets, the more able children will get ignored and the teachers will concentrate on getting the kids just below the target threshold to being up and over it.

Our DS is at a selective and it's just as bad.

He never had any Maths homework last year, because the teacher handed out a worksheet in class and the homework was to finish it at home, but DS always finished them in class with time to spare as he found it so simple. I broached the subject a couple of times with the teacher, who promised to give DS more, but it just never happened. I brought it up again and all the teacher could offer was some "Maths Challenge" past papers for him to do, but with no tuition nor marking - it was basically D-I-Y, and he never even followed that through either! According to DS, the teacher spent most of the lesson time helping the less able students and just ignored those who could do it!

We were quite excited at the start of this term as we noticed a maths after school club being set up, but then disappointed when we found out that it was aimed at the pupils who were struggling and that it was more of a remedial session than for the more able children.

It may be good for the school and teachers, but it really demoralises my son as he now finds Maths extremely boring and is rapidly losing interest.

Green leave - universities in UK run those programmes too.

I don't think it's like this everywhere

I agree. My y8 and y10 were invited to join in a Royal Society maths masterclass (5 weeks) which gave them lots of extension work, problem solving and new ways to 'do maths'.

I think it's a bit harder if they are G&T in science though as they don't teach beyond GSCE in our 11-16 college.

Kjwh, my main concern is worrying she is losing interest which is sad(she is happy at school and a very happy child in general just bored with any maths lessons so much that she prefers reading rather do any maths at school at all. She is told to though that she has to listen and do whatever teachers tell her to do. I just know it doesnt sound right. We looked into moving to an indi next year but change school, organising with nanny and with a baby etc its too much. We both work long hours so very little time to spend with her during the day and our english isnt the first and we didnt study here so its hard as many terminology we might explain them incorrectly or not as well. Anyway the last 2 weeks were singing which is ok as she is loving it

There are so much more to offer for able children in secondary I am just praying that she is hanging there and not losing interest or ability then she might get the motivation and supports she is craving for once she is in secondary. There are so many challenges and things worth learning that she hasnt been shown yet

My Ds is in Y9 now and I remember him hitting the glass ceiling in Y1. He would usually come home bored silly from a day e.g. of having to draw shapes. I was even told off for having taught him the proper names of letters 'early' (they taught phonics). He didn't need to 'learn' phonics as he already knew how to read. I pulled him out of that school.

Next was a better school and it was ok for a few years, then he hit the glass ceiling in Y4 when he reached level 6 and he learnt nothing new for two years. I spent all Y5 struggling with the school, teacher said she wasn't allowed/couldn't to do more, head said the opposite something would be done, nothing changed (they wouldn't even let him study work he brought in on his own).

At end of Y5 it was probably to late to change schools (regret that now). In Y6 school refused to allow DC to do level 6 SATs because they just didn't do them, it was unfair to the other children who weren't able. We went to an external exam center and did them anyway. FFS! Believe it or not most other parents in the same class thought it was my fault for teaching my DS stuff at home. He spent the whole year bored senseless revising level 4 with the whole class.

I looked at all the best schools in the county for secondary (Private & State) and picked the best academic one. Y8 he hit the glass ceiling with the level 8 curriculum, particularly with maths and sciences. Start of Y9 I have been looking at other schools again and despite lots of nice words there isn't a school state or private within the area that can do any better. For example he can't do Maths GCSE early as it would give him the old A* and would be much better if he had the new 9 level. No school will allow him to start an AS maths when he hasn't done GCSE and no school will let him sit at the back of the room and do his own thing. In a lot of subjects he just needs to run through the curriculum, its not hard and he is bored at the snails pace of the class but there is no way around it.

The sooner he gets to University and is allowed independent study the better. The only silver lining is all the great stuff on the internet, if I didn't have to work I wouldn't waste his time in a school.

We have all sorts of schools but we cant have academic ones. Grammar aside, they are so few and not really what I am talking about. Real high level academic schools that can fast track GCSEs in Y7/8 and get stuck into the hard stuff, that only children who actually love learning and are just being held back by 'normal' schools. I would start an academic Free school but they are banned. So my experience with school have just been depressing, because to many people want to enforce equality on all, even if that means dragging some down to average..

Did we ever have excellence?

Wow Bolognese, great sharing, thank you.

We dont want to move now as apart from maths further support her school is good, nothing I could complain. I was thinking of a private school which has bus pick up and very academic and paid for the 9+ exam fee but then decided not taking it. Mainly because I dont want her spend long time on a bus, arranging pick and drop might be an issue too then she loves her school, her friends(still moaning about every maths lesson). I will need to find a way to make it up for her until hopefully ...secondary??! I dont know what I else I need to do yet so still lurking around net mums to try to learn from other moms(but then she isnt talented nor gifted, she is only one of a more able child

Greenleave, I think maths is easy to learn by themselves if you let her loose on internet. (My ds is doing YR6+ UK and grade 7 & 8 US, some even beyond.) Can you let her work on computer when you are around?
My ds normally work on computer while I'm cooking on week days, so I can keep an eye on him, and it's about 30 minutes total, more or less. We don't let him use computer after dinner.
He also do some maths on computer in the morning before school, when we are around, once he got himself ready.(Totally his choice.)
Since we found Khan, he hasn't complained about being bored at school.

Irvine: I hardly have time in the evening as she has some music practise(20-30mins on both piano and violin after bath and dinner). I am thinking now she could have 30mins while I give the little sister final feed and put her to bed. Will look at Khan (and also pobble...thank you) tonight, thank you!

Greenleave: Khan is great for practicing/studying, have used it a lot (there are others as well). If she is very busy with piano and violin etc in the evening I would think a bit more before sitting her in front of a computer for more study, she needs fun time as well.

I have used maths games like manga high or apps like Dragonbox which develop level 6 and beyond but are really fun and stress relieving.

Bolognese, my ds used to love mangahigh as well. Learned all the order of operation , squares, cubes and square roots because he wanted to beat the game!

And Greenleave, I agree with Bolognese about fun time. Sound like she has so much to do everyday, and she is already ahead.

Those of you who use resources at home to compensate - what do you use? Are they specifically home-ed resources or?

Well I have to say everything has got better for my DD recently. First she's been recognised as being G and T (even if not in the most obvious subjects). She has been invited to Masterclasses in Maths (helps she is a girl as other girls weren't interested). She has been given the possibility of higher qualifications in Maths, and an extra curricula subject she is interested in.

Admittedly some stuff she is still coasting in, and others she is bored with the testing. But then I'm pretty laid back, and she teaches herself so much. School is mainly 6 hours of social education with bits of learning thrown in.

Thanks Bolognese, Irvine: still "thinking", for now evening mostly reading time. I have to pull her out from the books she is so into them, anything readable, I am worried about her eyesight, her posture wgen she spends hours reading. During the day now I have to ask our nanny allows her only 30mins-1hr reading only and at least 1 hour play outside on any dry day. She is encouraged with other things: chess, arts, craft. In the evening mostly music and reading, and chit chat for me to catch up with her day

Mummytime: great news, your daughter is very lucky to have that level of support I wish we have the same. I always hope she only has to learn at school and during school time, wish our school is like yours

We have found a glass ceiling with both dcs. Agree that it kicks in around yr4 (when they were old style level 4/5) the incentives to move them on just isn't there for the school. D's was "up classed" in year 4, but that didn't work brilliantly. Dd is in her year group and we are doing about 5 hours extra a.week at home.

D's is now in yr7 in a super selective grammar, they are doing foundation level GCSE maths (c grade). Which seems about right for him. Hoping that dd will follow.

Greenleave, I'm worried about ds's eyesight as well. I was a same when younger and I didn't need to wear glasses until uni, so I just tell him to read with enough lighting and good posture. We had to ban him from reading in the bath because it's too dark in there.( But I still do, but he doesn't know.)

I think primary school is often a bit limited. And the children identified as G and T at Primary do not always seem to be that special at secondary, whereas others might slip under the radar (one of mine was suddenly spotted in year 11).

I find it interesting that most conversations about how very able children are being 'held back' or 'frustrated' by school revolve specifically around maths (and, to a lesser extent, reading in the early years, with its seductive language of 'bands' and 'levels').

It seems to me that the (genuine) frustration experienced by parents and/or children about maths has quite a lot to do with the rather odd way it is perceived as a subject; and consequently, taught. The belief that one either has a 'maths brain' or doesn't; that one is either 'good at maths' or not - and that this is evident from a very young age - is widespread... but not supported by the evidence. And it's not just parents and children who believe it - many teachers do, too; it's woven into the way we structure the curriculum, indeed, with a focus on ability setting, and very narrow summative assessment.

The fact is, being able to score highly on an academic test really isn't a great marker of how good a mathematician you are. You only need to look at 'Hannah's sweets' to see this - a whole cohort of students, many of whom would have been described both by their teachers and themselves as 'high achievers' in maths, flummoxed by a problem that wasn't presented in exactly the way they'd been taught. They had the skills they needed, but little or no experience of using them in creative and flexible ways.

The shift away from pushing through 'levels' towards achieving 'mastery' in the new curriculum is a positive one, imo.... the problem is, many schools have a very poor grasp of what 'mastery' means, and how to provide 'enrichment' work that genuinely allows all students to progress.

No child need ever meet a 'glass ceiling' in maths, because the world of mathematics is full of open-ended, inspiring problems to explore, whatever skills one has yet to be taught. We don't talk about a 'glass ceiling' at KS1/2 for history, or PE, or art... because in those subjects, we're not obsessed with levels, and just how early it might be possible to take a GCSE. Similarly, no child need to be written off as 'bad at maths' from the age of seven, and limited in terms of what he/she is 'allowed' to learn as a result.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem at the moment; and I'm not saying that it can be solved by a mind-shift from parents alone. I am saying that it is by no means restricted to apparently 'able' children'; and I am suggesting that a massive alteration in society's attitude to maths, and schools' approach to teaching it, is required.

I thoroughly recommend reading 'Mathematical Mindsets' by Jo Boaler (every teacher should certainly read it!); and encouraging children - whether 'g&t' or not - to visit wild.maths.org/.

DS1 has been identified at school as having a "maths brain". Whilst the terminology might not be completely helpful they are doing something about it. The tests they did were InCAS which I believe gives information on reading and maths ability and potential. From this they have identified a group of children and those children do extension classes. The extension classes are completely separate from their normal maths lessons and they do problem solving and "thinking outside the box" exercises.

I'm reasonably happy with it for DS1 although one of the parents whose child wasn't put into the extension group has made it her mission to tell as many people as possible that its a group for those children who are struggling with maths to help them catch up

shrugs

As I say, the evidence actually suggests that as many as 95% of children, given the right teaching and support, can achieve at the highest level in maths. It's easier, of course, to pick out those that are good at tests quite early on, and focus on making them even better at tests.

I think the tests DS1's school did (InCAS) were about potential not learned exam technique. More IQ style (but I could be wrong).

We didn't even know DS1 was particularly good at maths. He's good at everything but I thought his "thing" was reading/writing/language.

That's the point, though. Pretty much every child has 'potential' in maths; brains are incredibly plastic. 'IQ style' is more or less meaningless, too. And tests don't need to be assessing 'learned exam technique' to be assessing 'how good someone is at tests'.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that your son is experiencing 'problem solving' and 'out of the box thinking' sessions. It's a misconception, however, that his peers wouldn't/couldn't benefit from them, too.