The glass ceiling for very able children

[var123]

Has anyone else encountered the sense that the school is merely paying lip service to the ideals that they will challenge all children and work to bring all the children in the class to their potential?

I bumped along it a couple of days ago in a face to face conversation with one of the teacher's at my children's secondary.

He was full of buzzwords (like resilience and challenge) but there was a complete vacuum when it came to detail about how he planned to achieve that wrt to my children. In fact, he kept lapsing into telling me how my DC might help the others "by inspiring the less able".

Honestly, has there ever been a human being born into this world, who feels inspired to keep ploughing away at something due to being in the presence of someone who learned to do it without breaking stride?? People who struggle and then succeed are the inspiring ones because they make you feel like if you can do it, then maybe you can too. The ones who always find it easy and are just waiting for you to catch up so they can move on are just disheartening to contemplate.

"I am trying not to alienate him but I am on a mission atm to turn this attitude around"

Var- I hate to say it, but the views you have expressed on here about why should anyone do anything they don't like and won't get kudos for isn't going to help................

var,

As I said in a post above, it has done able DD a lot of good to do something she is 'not naturally good at' - learn a musical instrument that is not 'press a key, get a note', which she started at the beginning of Y7. She has gone through anger, frustration, tears, periods when she doesn't want to practise because 'it will never be right so why bother' .... but she was as proud of her merit in Grade 1 as she has ever been of her distinctions in Grade 6 dance exams.

The situations aren't exactly parallel, though, because DD is used to the fact that however good you are at dance, hours of hard graft are always necessary. In that way, non-academic 'talents' are perhaps 'better for long term attitude and resilience' than academic ones, because sports, dance, music etc all require a significant level of routine, repetitive hard graft, whether you are a beginner or a professional, gifted or fairly average.

So if it is his attitude that you want to address, it is possible that you may find more fruitful areas for him to 'learn resilience and application' in non-academic areas of relative weakness rather than looking for them in his academic areas of strength IYSWIM?

DS is more able than DD in some areas, but is much more 'spiky', so he has always been more aware of the 'need to graft' and the presence of failure than she has. As a result I haven't ever had to 'select an area where I know he might fail' to actively work on resilience with him. Interestingly, at secondary he is much more of a 'joiner' than DD - he'll throw himself into anything, however unlikely, regardless of his ability at it. This from a child who had very significant ASD traits from early primary is something that make me happy!

Thinking practically about things that might be 'close to his areas of interest' but still 'hard':

• Does he play chess? DS entered a chess competition [throwing himself into things again] run by a local chess club, and as a teacher I was amused to see a whole host of our more able mathematicians as regulars there, who compete up to national level.

• Would any of the things linked from here www.gchq.gov.uk/how_we_work/partnerships/supporting_education/Pages/index.aspx be of interest? Again, DS and his friends enjoyed the National Cipher Challenge, for which their submissions became a bit of an excuse for meeting up and loafing around with cake...

• Coding challenges (since it sounds as if he's into IT and gaming): community.computingatschool.org.uk/resources/43

Also, more obscurely, church bellringing (at the highest level) is an intellectual activity full of the mathematically-minded....it's how I know the International Maths Olympiad competitors I met as a student...

Thinking about the Olypiad, the UKMT's different levels of challenge may also be of relevance to him:

www.ukmt.org.uk/individual-competitions/junior-challenge/

The linked papers are fun, and you can ask his school whether they enter the challenges. Top scorers progess up to Kangaroo and Olympiad papers.

var123 P8 measures average KS2 SATs to GCSE grade progress in 8 subjects, with rules about which ones can be included etc. The DfE factsheet is here: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/285990/P8_factsheet.pdf

I think what is not clear about Progress 8 is how the 'KS2 to GCSE' progress will be measured, especially where children have very low or spiky profiles.

For example, if a child has Level 3 in English but level 6 in Maths (I know of at least 1 child in this category), then what is a 'base line for progress' for, say, French? Or Textiles?

(The factsheet is very clear about what GCSEs can be included. But completely silent on how these are matched to KS2 results to obtain a progress mark)

Some schools took part in a Progress 8 trial run this year.

[p[http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=NAT&superview=sec&view=progress8]] is interesting.

One of the things it indirectly shows is how many pupils from grammar schools come from the independent primary / prep sector, because these are excluded from progress 8 as they have no KS2 results... For most non-selective schools, the percentage of children included in progress 8 is in the 90s, usually the high 90s (lower scores may well indicate children who have joined the school from abroad). Some grammar schools have percentages in the 70s.

This may make it difficult in future to compare selective and other schools on this benchmark.

I don't blame the school for Ds2's lack of resilience - they did not cause it. Its just that they are giving him false messages about how he can get away with it that contradicts what i am trying to achieve at home.

I do make my kids do stuff they don't like - just not hobbies so much. However, its more help with the gardening type stuff. There's a list on the fridge right now of chores that need doing this weekend (ironing, vacuuming, shoe cleaning etc) that I plan to show the tonight and ask which ones they plan to help with or better still do without any assistance.

They've got a ski trip coming up so I make them do the leg strengthening exercises each evening whether they want to or not.

Ds1 just accepts our explanations for why things are required and gets on with them without complaint, but Ds2 moans every step of the way.

It will also be interesting to see which of 'Progress 8' and 'Attainment 8' becomes the most 'publicly reported', as the schools highest up in the table for each are very different.

The 'traditionally highly regarded schools' - for example the selective schools - will want to report Attainment 8, as they score very well in this (high attainment pupils in, high results out). The 'good progress' schools - those who take in lower attaining pupils and teach them to make maximum progress - will want to report 'Progress 8'.

i suspect it will end up being Attainment 8 that gets most reported - because it matches people's inner perception of 'which the good schools are', and because the schools who score well in it (and relatively poorly in Progress 8) have quite loud voices!

(Respect to Nonsuch, by the way - high up the first page for both measures)

Var, I think the difficulty of using 'chores' as a way to teach resilience is that they don't have any element of 'getting through the slog phase and the difficulties through regular work gets you to a point where you are better at it and it's enjoyable'.

Do the ironing this week, and it's just all there again to do next week. Above a certain level of competence, you don't get any better at it with time. It's not social, it doesn't bring you into contact with like-minded people, it's not going to be a club you join at university or in the town where you get your first job.

I use chores as a way of teaching my children about communal living, and taking mutual responsibility for things - but I don't think that they teach 'resilience in the face of failure', nor 'motivation to try again, harder, in order to achieve worthwhile success', which is what it sounds as if your DS2 in particular needs.

Grit is an interesting thing to try to pass on. If you do well yourself your children tend to have a privileged life and most of us then want to ensure they don't take things for granted. I was saying on the to school the other day with my teenagers that it was amazing how many local children were buying Starbucks etc coffee on the way to the bus in the morning and how can they all afford it? I was met with incredulity - of course everyone can afford it (this is the SE). I said by no means everyone and certainly not in less well off areas. It is the clogs to clogs in 3 generations conundrum and why you need to get that balance between making things reasonable for your children without making them too easy. If it's too easy will they work? Should I throw out of the house my postman son so he gets better paid work? (He has no interst in money which I respect, so I doubt it and he is certainly extremely hard working and full of grit).

Anyway all schools private and state who can encourage cross country running in the rain, D of E awards or even staying up all night with your aged granny or the new baby because you are needed or whatever it might be - charity work etc tends to be good for many children (although one of my sons said D of E was the worst experience of his life but at least he now knows that is not his thing). At one extreme you send toddlers out to run in bare feet on snow (Chinese father, see youtube) at another a child never lifts a finger and is handed everything on a plate. I want to live in a UK where you can make your own choices for children and have different ways to bring them up within reason - by all means educate them at home but make sure they do not get scruvy because you were too stupid to feed them an orange etc.

I don't usually come into this section but now I know where all the action has been.
The reality of very bright DCs über achieving in -academics- at school and even university and post graduate stage is that very few make a contribution (discovery, socio economic or political) different to those DCs who might not have appeared to be as bright at school. I am excluding here those who are gifted in arts.
From the academic point of view the glass ceiling tends to be at PhD and early post doc level where you need some luck as well as the right sort of ability to make intellectual connections , real passion for your research, determination and a lot of very hard work to achieve high impact publications that really advance a field. My most successful peers with international recognition are those who still have the same focus even passion in what they do as well as capacity for hard work in their 40s and 50s -and- have had the personality to 'network' effectively.

"I do make my kids do stuff they don't like - just not hobbies so much."

Or school subjects.

Actually send is not wrong. 30 years into my career with no breaks at all even for babies, I wake up hugely enthused by it - the intellectual side of it. It's fun. I am paid to have fun. I am very lucky indeed.

My parents' advice to us is wise today and I give it to my chldren - pick work you like as you do it so much in your life, ideally pick intellectual stimulating work, best if it's reasonably well paid too and ideally work where you could become self employed later as it is much better if you own, rather than are someone's PAYE slave at their mercy. Not that my children always take my advice by any means....

IIRC Amy Chua's father made her dig a swimming pool in their back garden. With a spade.

I suppose the pay off for the slog was the fun of having a pool?

I think I probably over play the resilience/grit card with my DC because i can see that both DH and I have needed it and used it to our advantage ( possibly more so than high academic ability).

Also, because I had a very disadvantaged childhood I am mortally aware of the clogs to clogs conundrum as deo mentioned.

To quote Chua 'not on my watch'.

I'm going to amend my 'what I think every person needs in preparation for adult life' list from a long way upthread:

• The basic skills needed to live independently (chores fit into this category)

• The skills and qualifications needed to get a job suited to their particular interests and aptitudes (for most people, this will be academic qualifications, and at a minimum, even people who will earn their living doing sports / music etc, which for many people are hobbies, should have a decent grasp of English and Maths)

• A way of keeping fit and healthy that they enjoy and are skilled enough at enough to do regularly

• A hobby or constructive, and if wished social, way of spending relaxation time

I do genuinely believe that if we have children who find the whole 'academic sphere' easy - and children who are equally gifted across the range are quite rare - then we should look to develop resilience and grit and 'stickability' through one or more of the other categories.

var, how much does your DS2 read? Does he play an instrument? Has he found a sport or physical activity that he is willing to participate in and could improve at? (You mention skiing - is there a dry ski slope nearby? Is this a one-off trip or part of an annual series? On the trip, will he have instruction that can help him to improve?) Are there places or things you could visit together - theatres, music, historical places - that could enhance his life? All of these are possibly fruitful avenues to explore to develop stickability and grit - not all 'immediately attractive', though.

Resilience can take so many forms. Physical resilience (as measured by DofE expeditions, the digging of swimming pools etc) is highly measurable but the psychological resilience of coping in new environments surrounded by people you are not accustomed to is, IME, an increasingly critical skill in the global world of work. Certainly we have spent a lot of money engineering those experiences for the DC and it has definitely helped them so far.

Youy're right, Bobo. Interestingly, one suggestion i thought of - but didn't write - for var's son would be sending him abroad for a homestay or exchange, either in a language that he is learning / could learn at school or one he could pursue out of school.

var, how much does your DS2 read? Does he play an instrument? Has he found a sport or physical activity that he is willing to participate in and could improve at? (You mention skiing - is there a dry ski slope nearby? Is this a one-off trip or part of an annual series? On the trip, will he have instruction that can help him to improve?) Are there places or things you could visit together - theatres, music, historical places - that could enhance his life?

He reads all the time (when he isn't playing electronic games). I think he's read almost all the books in the various age relevant sections at Waterstones (girls ones aside). Most of these books he has read at least 5 times. Now he's in the young adult section, but that's more difficult to navigate as some of them contain inappropriate themes.

Skiing - yes, there has been an annual trip so far. He takes instruction from the ski school and he'll do it exactly what the adult with him tells him to do whether that's DH in the afternoon or the ski instructor in the morning.

Other sports - there's football but he's not good enough to get into a team so I think we may struggle with that one now. I am looking at basketball as a replacement.

Theatre - too expensive, i'm afraid.

Museums - yes we drag DS2 to museums and try to interest him in what's there. Usually with some success before he starts asking repeatedly exactly how much more we have to do before we leave. DS1 loves these trips.

Country houses, historic palaces etc - yes, we've done a fair bit of those but neither boy likes them. Ds1 is better if there is some sort of narration that brings it to life or explains the history of the people who lived there, rather than just what their bed and hairbrush looked like.

He's not a bad boy. I love him very much. I just don't like the moaning when he has to do things at home that aren't his first choice and the lack of trying to do his best at school.

teacherwith2kids, “learn a musical instrument that is not 'press a key, get a note’”

Do you want me to get pianist DD in here to reduce you to a small pile of smoking wreckage?

[Yes strings are much harder to begin, but they become more relaxing around the point pianists are discovering their instrument is much harder to ‘finish’ in grade terms etc.]

EricNorthmanSucks, "IIRC Amy Chua's father made her dig a swimming pool in their back garden."

She has also said that was titchy and “it was so fun”. Which is mildly disturbing because typical English DD has used that precise phrase a lot.

Hard-stuff selected for DD. It didn’t create, so much as expose her stoic character. I suppose it looks much the same from a distance, but if she was less DD then those same experiences would have had weaker looking outcomes. There is only so much wriggle-room for nurture and we probably have too many parents beating themselves up for failing to replicate the promise in parenting recipe books.

Pique, sorry, I should have explained myself. No disrespect meant to anyone playing another instrument.

DD used to play the clarinet. Which she was entirely adequate at, and so didn't meet the need for 'something she really struggles with' ... also, DS will ALWAYS be better at it than she is, and I value domestic harmony a little!

The thing that has reduced DD to tears of frustration, endless repetition of the same note, sheer gritted teeth determination to get it right if it kills her, is the intonation. She can hear when it's wrong. She's not yet adept enough to get it right automatically. It has been brilliant FOR HER SPECIFICALLY, not for anyone else, because of this - and because, yes, she can get better and it can become relaxing. Which as it will always be a hobby for her, not 'something she could earn her living at', is important.

(I suppose in choosing 'hard stuff to build perseverance and resilience' it will always be a case of knowing your child, changing as they grow, and also understanding what is available locally and realistically for you and your family.

For DD it happens to be the cello at the moment (Cub hikes were good a few years ago, for a different reason).

For DS, some time back, it was talking to people (was a selective mute). Now it is around writing essays. For him, now, the 'hobby and exercise' parts come easily, but some specific parts of academic work are hard. It changes over time.)

As a mother of twins I have my own sample group for the nature versus nurture debate .

DD is incredibly resilient, both physically and emotionally. I don't know how much is naturally a part of her and how much her experiences have built.

A slippery mix, I guess. Her personality is such that she actively thrives in new environments and situations. But in order to achieve equivalent grades to her brother, she has had to graft, which has taught her a huge life lesson.

DS is naturally less comfortable in new environments etc. But he's been exposed to them whether he has liked it or not (and sometimes he has most definitely not ). And sometimes I've felt like a rotten meanie! But these experiences seem to have had a very positive effect (though some of that may be due to maturing too).

teacher indeed for DD the easier bit has been the social and extra curricular aspect, the harder part has been academic.

The other way round for DS. He has found the tougher part the social side.