The glass ceiling for very able children

[var123]

Has anyone else encountered the sense that the school is merely paying lip service to the ideals that they will challenge all children and work to bring all the children in the class to their potential?

I bumped along it a couple of days ago in a face to face conversation with one of the teacher's at my children's secondary.

He was full of buzzwords (like resilience and challenge) but there was a complete vacuum when it came to detail about how he planned to achieve that wrt to my children. In fact, he kept lapsing into telling me how my DC might help the others "by inspiring the less able".

Honestly, has there ever been a human being born into this world, who feels inspired to keep ploughing away at something due to being in the presence of someone who learned to do it without breaking stride?? People who struggle and then succeed are the inspiring ones because they make you feel like if you can do it, then maybe you can too. The ones who always find it easy and are just waiting for you to catch up so they can move on are just disheartening to contemplate.

Newlife- a) your ds is at a private specialist school- she has a specific talent that obviously cannot be catered for in a mainstream school b) your previous posts suggest that the school is not doing very well at supporting her academically.
I don't think, based on your testimony, that it should be seen as a standard bearer for educating gifted children.

I have given up on this thread its got to personal.

Bertrand

I think you can have teething problems in all sorts of schools a term is the usual time given for a child to settle into such an environment, especially coming from H.ed as she has.
On the contrary, since just before Christmas a plan was put into place to help dd with not only Maths but strategies to help with organisation, something she struggles with.
It isn't like a school with a set time table it varies and from child to child.

Anyway, what has that got to do with my response to Lurking?
I was talking about them actually doing what they say they do.
It would be nice to see other schools operating like this for children with all sorts of gifts.

Sorry to hear that Bolognese. I think it did get personal for a bit but its back to discussing what might work as a solution. People are passionate about it, but then it is our own DC who are being failed.

"Anyway, what has that got to do with my response to Lurking?"

Because the school you are talking about is an expensive, private school specializing in children with a very specific talent. I honestly don't see how it could possibly be used as a model for a state funded school.

I think newlife means in terms of how places are awarded, it's done with assessments on ability and potential, rather than like 11+ entrance which doesn't always give a true representation.

I do think something similar could work. Dd had an academic interview, where they asked her to do tasks well above the levels she was at, I assume to see how she thought and approached work. Which is more accurate than just an exam of what she knew

I don't see why the situation newlife is describing (with her child's "gift" in a specific subject being nurtured, whilst at the same time she is encouraged to progress in a core academic subject in which she is "not too bright") need be in a selective setting. Indeed, it's a clear example of why 'superselectives' can be counterproductive (Aha! Finally, a solution that caters for the exceptionally able! Oh, unless that ability is in a niche subject area; or the parents aren't engaged enough to explore such a school as an option, or have ideological, ethical or practical objections; or the child's abilities aren't spotted until Y9 (according to pique); or the child is half a percentage below the entrance requirements - but still tens of percentages above the most able of her remaining peers; or the child doesn't have the kind of personality that would thrive in such a setting...

So, essentially, a solution that would make a lot of parents on this thread very happy. But doesn't really go any further than that. It's back to the echo chamber...

And yes, back to the bee in my bonnet for me

the solution that I had in mind - and I have not spent oodles of time thinking this through - would be something like:-
secondary comprehensive schools would form a cluster with other schools local to them. They would each lend their most able pupils on a subject by subject basis to a sub-school in which they would all participate. they would also lend accommodation, teaching resources and teachers to the sub-school.

That way the more able children would be able to access material that went beyond the national curriculum or the GCSE syllabus. It wouldn't necessarily have to be from the next level up, but could just be deeper study or a topic that isn't being covered at all in the regular class.
Maybe pupils would have to travel across town one day a week to go to this sub-school, unless their own school was the host.
It would not necessarily lead to better exam results, but it might indirectly as it would help with pupil engagement.

The idea of secondary (and primary) schools 'clustering together' is a really powerful one at the moment, and often a very healthy response to academisation. I agree that a programme for exceptionally able pupils - without segregating them completely - would be a great option for such a 'cluster'. And still no need for setting/streaming as standard.

It's rather harder in rural areas than urban ones; but 'twas ever thus.

How do we define "most able"?

That's exactly what I was getting at var. Locally a few secondaries already do it with some none gcse subjects, either due to numbers or facilities.

If you were doing it like that bert most able would be any child not being stretched by the schools gcse curriculum. While that would cover a massive span of ability, it would still be easier to meet in a class where the teacher isn't restricted or under pressure to hit targets.

"If you were doing it like that bert most able would be any child not being stretched by the schools gcse curriculum."

How would you decide? And at what stage?

And what % are we talking about? Who would pay for the teachers?

Who monitors and pays for the traveling between schools?

Another option, of course, would be to deliver off-curriculum programmes online, accessible to any student who wants to benefit from them.

"Another option, of course, would be to deliver off-curriculum programmes online, accessible to any student who wants to benefit from them."

Now that's a good idea. But I suspect some people would say it wasn't proper teaching.

I'm sure they would. But they'd be wrong...

bert normal education should pay, after all that's how it works for every other ability group. Perhaps with the schools sending pupils contributing, given that they won't have the full burden of educating that child. No reason why in many cases it wouldn't just be kids joining courses already available if you based it at a college/uni.

As for travel, means test, with it free for those that need it. Especially since in well populated areas there won't necessarily be any extra costs.

Online sounds better than nothing to me. Maths based subjects would be fine, and probably languages too. On a personal note the lone experience wouldn't bother dd at all. However I do understand that many gifted children can struggle socially as outliers, and online individual learning would only compound it.

I agree with var123. In this modern day, with computers pretty ubiquitous (even in my dc's very underfunded urban public school - we're in the usa), it's not difficult for a teacher to let children work at different depths and paces. I am not sure that they even have to physically move from one location to another to explore unique subjects in different ways.

Personally I have found that my ds (age 15) does better if he is allowed to explore in detail his areas of interest within a topic. I have encouraged his teachers (with only limited success) to give him an in depth essay assignment on whatever topic they are studying (even if they don't require it from the other children) and at a minimum, not to penalize him for straying. This is particular important for ds because although he is very very bright, he misses a lot of school for medical reasons and needs to be allowed unconventional ways to master the subject so that he doesn't fall behind or get disengaged.

Most recently, ds did an assignment that the teacher gives each week which is to write a 250 word paragraph using at least 4 of the week's vocabulary words. Ds turned in a 1000 word essay about rebuilding his computer. He didn't use more than the required 4 words, but he wrote an excellent essay. This teacher is new to him. I will be curious to see if she complains that he strayed from the assignment (by making it longer without using more vocabulary words) or if she recognizes the importance of keeping him engaged through academic explorations.

"However I do understand that many gifted children can struggle socially as outliers, and online individual learning would only compound it."

Online learning need not be a 'lone experience'; there could be webinars, forums, spaces to share work etc.

I just don't think the "cluster" thing could work practically. For example, within a say 15 mile radius of my ds's school, there are 6, maybe 7 schools. That's about 8000 kids. 2% of 8000 is 160. 22 ish in each year. How are they going to get from school to school without their entire day being taken up with traveling? How is timetabling going to work? And that 22 will include the very bright to the super-bright- how will differentiation going to work? How are they going to be part of their school and do PE and team training Nd performances and so on if they're spending massive chunks of the day on the bus? And what about safeguarding? The "home" school will be responsible for them while they're traveling........

The physical logistics work with vocational courses and btechs perfectly well.

multi quite possibly, but I don't have enough personal experience to say that would solve the social side

How about some positive ideas of solution instead of just pointing out everything negative you can think of.

The high school that my dc's go to is not perfect but certainly could be looked at for examples of how to solve many of the issues that Bertrand raises. It has 3000 students and supports a hugely diverse population (62% v. low income, 27% black, 51% latino, 26% G&T, 12% disabled) that comes from the greater Los Angeles area (many kids travel over an hour each way). The school has two of the top performing magnets (one academic and the other performing arts+academics) in the city. My dc's (both G&T) are getting a reasonable amount of support for their academic needs and my ds who has serious medical issues is getting an enormous amount of support on that front.

They have some classes with the general population (PE and some electives) and then some classes are tracked (regular, honors and AP). The performing arts classes are tracked by ability for the particular art. Some classes have children going off to MIT along side children with significant cognitive delays.
My ds has done his math online with no supervision for the last year and I will probably homeschool (or hire someone to do so) him in at least one or two subjects next year. He will also probably take a class or two at our local community college (uk equivalent to a technical college).
Again, it's not perfect by any means, but it offers lots of examples and possibilities of how one can do things differently.

"The physical logistics work with vocational courses and btechs perfectly well."
Does it? I don't have any experience of this personally, but that's encouraging. Surely, though, you would have a whole group of children going together to one place all to do the same thing?

Sophia- it's no use closing out eyes to the difficulties. Interesting that you mention 26% G and T at your school- that would make economies of scale possible. What I thought we were talking about here (correct me if I'm wrong) is the very top 2%- so only a few in each school.......