Do I need to do anything?

[SlightlyAshamed1]

Ds asked for extra maths, school were not supportive, we ended up getting a maths tutor (who is completely amazing) as a treat. Yesterday with the tutor he did a test at level 7, which I understand to be @ 12/13 year olds. He didn't know what some of the sums were, and he found it a stretch, but he did very well. He is eight.

The reason the tutor did this test is because during the summer holiday, between year three and year four, ds was doing the mental maths tests designed for year six, getting 100% and finding it easy. We don't cover stuff that they haven't done in schools and I am against pushing him too much.

This may be good, he may grow out of it, he may just have a knack. The school do push their pupils, so he isn't allowed to coast. Okay, he does coast, but he's encouraged and it's not too bad.

Do I need to do anything? I don't want to let him down, but I don't want him to feel the odd one out. I just want to do the right thing by him, which may be to leave well alone, just keep on with the maths tutor. Am I just being a bit precious?

Any advice gratefully received.

I think you've just discovered that your son's maths ability is a square peg in the round hole of the education system.

You can now decide whether to prepare him for GCSEs early (and then what?) or try to broaden his knowledge and keep him engaged, which is a lot more difficult.

I don't know the answer to your question. Yes, your son has needs and no, they will not be met by the education system which is geared towards getting him ready to sit his GCSE in year 11. I've got the same problem (but not as acute), I've been grappling with it for years and I still have not worked out a reasonable solution.

By the way, level 7 is considered to be broadly equivalent to a C at GCSE.

I think it depends on whether you think there is any benefit in getting to formal milestones earlier or whether you prefer a different approach.

I'm very lazy with my kids. The older one (my highly gifted one) is very keen on outside activities so I let her do quite a lot of those, but we don't push any school stuff. Tbh as they get older if they do want to learn something, the Internet will teach them, usually for free.

I think with a very gifted child there comes a point where you have to choose between pushing ahead with milestones, or simply accepting that the school programme will probably be unsuited until at least A level or the equivalent. Once you've decided that, you get on with providing stimulation and opportunities (not necessarily academic ones) outside of school - my oldest for example is a keen self-taught musician who's also learnt languages at home. She is planning to add German to her list this year because she can't do it at school. She has plenty of time on her hands because she finds schoolwork very easy.

Maths tutor as a treat? I wouldn't like to see what they get as a punishment!

DS2 would have thought doing maths was a treat when he was younger too.

He wouldn't now though because he's come to view maths as a bit of a grind, a time to try to overcome feelings of boredom, and I think the OP is right to try to avoid getting into the same situation.

Extra maths is my idea of hell. It is also my husband's idea of hell. We are stuffed.

I hate this feeling of helplessness as you look at your eight year old kid, who to you is perfectly normal, coasting through questions that you have never been able to answer. I don't want to let him down.

The headteacher, who while nice has never directly taught him, doesn't believe it. Ds didn't do the algebra, we're really strict about him not learning stuff he hasn't done at school (apart from the time when he was able to explain a maths thingy to the teacher because he'd seen it on a YouTube video even though the class hadn't covered it yet). He was just fine with all the other stuff, even the less familar bits. I think I am now marked down as one of 'those' mothers.

We've decided to keep going with the maths tutor. She is absolutely awesome and is basically playing maths games with him, pushing him to keep going with the numbers, having a go at science experiments etc and keeping him challenged while having fun. Hopefully this will keep his interest. We will continue to be really lax with screen time but tough on age appropriate so he will be absorbing the science/maths YouTube stuff (and I will be trying to instill a healthy cynicism). There will be loads of books around if he chooses to read them (yes, his reading is very fluent, I've no idea whether it's normal, a bit advanced or a lot advanced. I just let him get on with it). We will do things like Science Museums and stuff.

I do not think it would be healthy for him to do a GCSE early, or at least, more than a year early.

Thanks for letting me get this out. It's hard when you have absolutely no idea of what to do for the best and it could have such an impact on his life.

ok, so one option is for the tutor to start to introduce some UKMT material. He could start to get used to preparing for the primary maths challenge.

If he is a really good reader, its a perfect age for murderous maths books, there are loads of them.

I really don't feel comfortable with early gcses, school maths is pretty trivial and incidental to a whole world of interesting maths. There is just no advantage.

I agree about early GCSE, but only because being good at maths surely leads into A level, which in turn leads into university and who wants to go to uni age 14 or 15? Even if you don't know you want to do a maths degree, you'd at least want the option of deciding that for yourself?

The other option is to take a break from learning maths at all (after GCSE, say). I think of being good at something as a talent, and it seems such a waste to just leave it untouched for a couple of years and hope you'll still find it easy when you pick it up again once everyone has caught up.

So, then you decide not to do GCSEs early, but that creates a vacuum. Everyone says its such a wide subject, but is it really? I think it is from undergraduate level onwards, but before that, isn't it just arithmetic, word problems, a bit of algebra, some trigonometry and an intro to calculus?

I still dont understand the maths tutor? If he is maths genius, but you are strict about him not doing stuff they haven't done at school yet, then what is the purpose of it? Would you not be better using the time to do something they are not genius at? A sport, music etc?

Must be better treats for 8 year old than a non required maths tutor?

At that age DD would bite my hand off to do some maths, especially any kind of formal test, because she thought it was "so much fun!"

She's still roughly the same now aged 12, but DD's home-life is largely filled with a variety of not-school stuff she also enjoys. Only one part, a musical instrument, has weekly lessons.

Slightly different for us, because we got very lucky with Dds primary, so we didn't have the usual boredom. And although she has always loved maths outside school, I'm that way inclined too, so when she was younger it was easy for me to find/ make up maths entertainment. Since she started y6 she's mainly found her own maths entertainment. One of her favourite hobbies when she was younger was working out betting odds, moving on to quite complicated accumulators/ working out her own odds for imaginary races etc. Not actually betting, just combining horse racing and maths, which for her was the perfect combo. Not sure how hard you can make it with any other sports he may be knowledgeable about though.
Ditto the primary maths challenge if his school don't do it.
Dd loves other stuff too, but she's another who would have thought a maths tutor a treat.

Being able to teach maths is a skill in itself, so it sounds like you have a really good tutor.

I can understand it being a treat. I do not like football. Going to a match would be an endurance for me. However, it does not stop me being aware that others do like football. If maths is your son's thing, why would it not be a treat?
One point I do not get is if you have told the tutor not to teach him above the level he is at at school, which at 8 will be around level 4, why was he tested at level 7 when he had not learnt the level 7 curriculum and you did not want him to have learnt level 7 things?
My choice would be not to put limits on it. An education system which insists on children not learning when they have the ability and desire to learn seems bizarre. This is, however, the system we are stuck with and going against the flow of a child being one standard deviation above mediocrity is a difficult path to follow.
Several years down the line with my own dd, I have come to the conclusion she both likes learning new maths and broadening her understanding. Each complements the other, rather than being at the exclusion of the other.
The internet now has lots of great courses and dd is at a school where the maths teachers have degrees in maths an an enthusiasm for teaching it. She will not run out of new things to learn.

I just assumed they were given an old L5-7 or L6-8 SATS paper to play with.

The levels in school maths are fuzzy things, often more based on the difficulty within a topic than distinct topics. We have an old KS3 maths textbook collecting dust, where for instance percentages is broken into distinct sections for levels 4-5, 5-7 and 6-8 (mirroring outcomes available via different old SATS papers). But teach an intelligent child entry-level percentages and they may well cope with the work in all the levels using a dash of inference, intuition and at the high end concepts from other topics e.g. basic algebra. The only obvious obstacles are vocabulary/labels e.g. 'compound interest' might be opaque, but you can explain that concept in less than a minute.

When DD was 8 her self-image was very strongly Maths Geek despite being a generic high-ability child. She repeatedly told us she was 'rubbish' at other subjects because they were rated a sub-level lower. I saw that as a serious problem because I didn't want her closing down other areas at such a young age. Thus we backed away from the maths a little and paid more attention to opportunities for other 'appetites and aptitudes'. A few years on Maths Geek is still a strong part of the self-image, but she has several other substantial parts to complement that.

jennnnnnnnnn our life for the past few years has been incredibly stressful and at times a literal car crash. ds needed a treat and he kept asking for extra maths. I can't do maths and neither can my husband. We are effectively number illiterate. I'm scrabbling round for counselling at the moment, it has been awful. This maths tutor gives him stuff to enjoy.

ds has just started year four. During the summer the tutor was giving him mental maths tests aimed at year six. He was getting 100%. She made him write down the answers in Roman numerals. She was looking for something to push him and he had a good go at a test she described as for just under GSCE, level seven. I really only have a sketchy idea what that means. We skipped the algebra but he was pushed (and exhilarated) by the challenge. They were skirting round a lot of stuff, but he was getting stuff quick.

I really don't want to push him beyond what he is learning in class. He has had so much going on, the less that makes him stand out the better.

I just wish I knew what the right thing was.

If he has had a lot else going on, I would definitely carry on with the tutor, simply because it is giving him pleasure, and also a positive sense of himself. He will stand out in class whatever you do, but at least he won't be bored.

Have you thought about a chess club as giving him another outlet. And if you have a tablet, there is a great game called DragonBox (in 5+ and 12+ versions, he could probably do one after another) which is simultaneously fun and an intro to algebra. (there's also a geometry one but I don't rate it as much).

What have the school actually said? Have you shared the test results with them?

The head teacher said he wasn't outstanding. She has never been convinced he is bright. His form tutors are at the sharp end and last year the form teacher apparently checked the internet to confirm that eg, ds did know about certain volcanic rocks that the form teacher hadn't heard of, that he picks stuff up easily etc. (the tutor didn't know that obsidian was volcanic glass. I didn't judge, I can't teach thirty kids. There are other examples)

I explained about the test - level seven but skipping the bits he hadn't been taught like algebra and she just didn't believe me. I could try getting it all formal and the tutor writing to the school, but I honestly don't know if it will go against ds - if the head teacher is convinced I am trying to make him look brighter than he is and hot housing him then there is no way she is going to accept that he is getting ahead.

They are put in different classes according to ability and I am not convinced that the new maths teacher is the encouraging sort either.

I suppose it's being a parent - trying to work out what to do for the best when it is all unknown.

getinthesea - thank you for the hint about dragonbox. I shall look it up. ds has a pc in the study as while I am incredibly slack around screen time, I try and avoid screens at bedtime so I have avoided portable stuff. We are considering changing that for Christmas.

Don't worry about the school pushing back and generally implying that you are deluded - its a classic technique and something many of us have experienced from time to time.

They do it because its easier to imply that you are the problem, than admit that they are failing your child. If you think about it, if he were to receive a really good education that kept him slightly challenged him most of the time, then he'd need a series of lessons for your son alone.

He's like a little sponge and he'll master whatever he gets taught quickly, demonstrate it in 10 different ways and then sit like an excited puppy ready for the next thing. Even teaching him 1-1 would be exhausting because you'd never be able to rest. You'd spend time working out what to offer next, assembling it into an explanation for him and then a series of tasks for him to do, then he'd have finished the lot almost before you get a chance to start thinking what you can offer next.

Except teachers have 30 children to look after, some of them need things explained many times before they get it, then there is discipline to be taken care of, registers to be marked, art materials to be prepared, games lessons to be devised, forms to be filled, parents to talk with etc., etc. So, they only have a tiny amount of time to teach your child, and since he's easily meeting every government target the teacher is given, she may not feel too inclined to spend time helping him.

Why schools just won't admit that, I don't know. Instead, they prefer to imply the parent is simply wrong about what their child can do, and has the capacity to do. They will declare black is white and if you insist that its black, and provide specialist reports to prove it, they will tell you that they don't recognise the qualifications of the report writer, or that the report is biased because you paid for it. Moreover, they will imply in their manner that you are a pushy parent.

They will discuss you child's progress in levels to show you he has made progress, until you speak back in levels and then they will suddenly switch tack and tell you that you "too hung up on levels".

They will promise vaguely that things will be better soon, or instruct you that they are the professionals and you should leave it to them, or imply you are ruining you child's childhood by hot-housing him (i.e. artificially increasing his ability in specific areas), or they will inform you that you are too focused on the things your child is good at and you shouldn't say another word about them until he is equally good at whatever he has normal ability in.

If the school or an individual teacher chooses to see what is under their noses and actually help your child, then rejoice! However, there will be many years when that doesn't happen and I honestly believe that every bit of effort you put into changing their minds, whether by persuasion or obligation, is just a waste of time effort and emotional energy.

Its great that your son is very able, but the cost is that you'll have to take care of developing his abilities if you want a rate of progress that is anything other than that which the education system is designed to do. (Personally I suspect the state education system is setup to teach children around the 40th centile and everyone else is expected to just fit in!)

Var, your comment is spot on!!!

You are not letting your DS down by not knowing all the answers. Showing him that adults can still learn and admit limitations is a great lesson.

We've gone for lax on maths but round out the person with DS. He plays three sports so at least he is physically shattered which I think makes it easier to handle classroom boredom. He's in year7 and there is no setting yet. Learning coding on Khan Academy (free) is another outlet.

Friends' DC have been leaving for university this month and DS has announced (age11) he fancies maths at Cambridge. I'll come back to you in 7 years and tell you if he goes there but it was handy when Cambridge announced this week the probable return of an entrance exam including essay. " I told you good at maths isn't enough on its own!"

I agree with Var, but would add that even super selective independent schools can be like this too. They want everyone to get A* at GCSE, but don't care that a very able child will be bored and put off long before then.

If your child is really good at maths, top set extension work will still be worlds away from what he could be doing. Most schools don't accept this because it is a nuisance for them.

I really appreciate the support and messages on this thread. The last few years have been utterly vile, really tough. ds has had to take a back seat here and there out of necessity - and it really was necessity. I'm trying to pick up the pieces now and that includes doing the best for ds.

There are examples in both mine and my husband's family of people who looking back were actually genuinely incredibly intelligent, and they just drifted. The outcomes as adults aren't stellar.

Ds has already been bullied at the school, his good friends (who are nice kids) are telling him he is too clever, and yet I don't want him to just drift into a call centre job (one of the better outcomes for adults on both sides of the family).

I am scratching round for counselling, and I am extremely worried that ds is now fragile. The last thing I want to do is put extra pressure on him, but he seemed exhilarated by the maths. The GP said that the tension between his mental capacity and physical age may be having an impact. I mentioned to the GP about ds getting 100% in mental maths tests meant for three years ahead just as a way of boosting ds' confidence in a difficult appointment, and the GP's reaction made me think that I needed to perhaps think about stuff, then the tutor independently was trying to find something to challenge him and found that actually, he's a bit further ahead than we thought.

I suppose it is normal for being a parent - not knowing what to do for the best.

Mental health problems are not that uncommon amongst very able children, I am sorry to say.

I've had the odd problem with DS1 - mainly centred around perfectionism and the fear of being a freak. DS2 is happy-go-lucky by nature, but even he has been upset sometimes feeling that no matter how hard he tries, how many artificial hoops he jumps through, he can't get the (primary) teacher to set him challenging work.

I advocated for Ds2 a lot and got absolutely nowhere. There were 2 primary schools and now both boys are at secondary and things are shaping up the same again - unchallenging work and targets that were passed before they were even set.

Its taken me a long time and a lot of heartache to realise that its not me being PFB, its the system saying it will "teach" but not meaning it, and never intending to mean it.

So, i know the answer is to let them try at the subjects they don't find easy and give them opportunities to develop themselves at home. However, I am also stretched 100 ways, don't have any time for myself at all, haven't had a night out in years, and still I can only serve up patchy solutions, that don't really answer the issues.

I wish I could offer you an answer OP, but I can only tell you to short cut trying to get the school to help and do your best to encourage your DS to find ways to interest himself at home. Plus telling you that you are not alone.

"his good friends (who are nice kids) are telling him he is too clever.." It is truly hard to manage this. DS was being taught maths 1-2-1 by the deputy HT at his state primary and we realised this was marking him out whilst being exemplary differentiating by the school. We got him into a Sunday football squad. We also moved him to an academic independent school. That isn't an option for everyone but ours (not near London) does decent bursaries so you might like to look around.

Reading this thread was like being taken back ten years. I experienced grave difficulties with some of my son's primary school teachers not wanting to engage with our concerns about his ability and the reasons why he was becoming more and more unwilling to go to school where he was bored. We bribed him into going by allowing him to do extra work at home so I do understand why your DS sees extra maths as a treat.

Our solution may not be for you, but if you can I would suggest applying for a place at an academic independent school. Our son got a full scholarship and has one more year to go before he finishes. It wasn't a perfect solution because it is a boarding school, but it has made a significant difference to him.

The teachers are used to dealing with very bright children and don't see you (as the parent) or them as a nuisance to be got rid of, but rather as a challenge to help in the best way they can. The key difference though is that being clever is seen as normal. All the children are clever and therefore no one gets bullied for being bright. None of them have to cover up being able in order to fit in. So the children learn that it is who you are that matters. We felt that this was really important. Our son is now happy, well-adjusted, engaged with learning and has friends. I think if we hadn't done this he wouldn't be any of those things.

I sympathise with your anxiety. Having a very bright child is not the fun option many people seem to think. It's a huge responsibility. We agonised for months about what to do for the best and in the end realised that it wasn't about us, our politics, our views, our inclinations. It was about what was best for him. I would make the same decision again in a heart beat. Your son doesn't need counselling he needs a school suited to his abilities.

Dear heaven the pefectionism - I really recognise that var123 And an almost pathological fear of being told off. It's like he is shaping his identity around being clever, but there isn't enough to push against.

I think the maths tutor is currently a saviour. He was bullied when he went to martial arts, so that is now a non-starter and there are limited things around. I can't drive and we couldn't afford to run a second car even if I could. I don't want to put more pressure on him than there is already. I am currently forcing him to learn piano, in the hope that he finds something he needs to work at. He still manages to blag through that far too much.

This morning he was just a little boy that didn't wash his face properly before school.