Not being able to talk about gifted kids

[metamorphosis]

I thought this was interesting and reminded me of some threads on here. The writer has remained anonymous which says it all.

www.parentdish.co.uk/kids/the-very-british-shame-of-having-a-clever-child/#aol-comments

It is very interesting and part of my mantra, it seems to be ok for bully mums to scowl ridicule and socially outcast the parents of a clever/ gifted or even just a child who has had a parents input, a parent who has taught the child to read and to count before they start school instead of constantly watching some god awful programmes on the tv from the social weapon CBBC about snot bogies and bad behaviour and spending the rest of their piytful week in a stinking playbarn with all the 'socially advanced' ie able to punch another child off the slide so they get a go. BUT. Its not ok for us to respond by saying
" well your child will probably become a bully like you and only enjoy the crude nasty and wastful side of life with no social responsibilty or planning for their future or respect for their parents or teachers, or a joy oflearning and stable relationship because you don't engage with your kids at all and youve just been waiting for school to do your work for you for free and then you moan because the child turns into SENCOs worst nightmare"
Not that i would say that of course because i would also be attacked by obese jobless bully mums who appear to prowl the threads looking for victims especially the parents of children who have full active lives with parents who limit tv time and encourage children to say their alphabet before bed, as they are failing their children and it helps them get through the day if they can persecute someone trying to make a difference whilst they spend another 2 hours on mn whilst their kids watch mamma mia - again !
I would advise all those parents trying to find help or a just a friendly ear to stay off this cess pit of social inadequates and contact your nearest independent school and talk to them, see if they can help, you will probably be very surprised, plus it gets you and preciuos child away from the mums and their childeen who frequent these vortexs of personality.

Lovely attitude Ladyhawkstone. How angry you seem....

Wow. Just Wow. :(

I think this is the attitude of most people everywhere but particularly on mumsnet, some nasty (jealous?)people out there. Saying that I think this is a great forum for advice (unless it is about G&T).

I started a thread once to genuinely ask advice about my DS and before I could respond to any of the comments there were all sorts of things being said, some quite nasty and others making assumptions about me and him. I was also told that there are many 5 year olds that are level 4's so he isn't that ahead at a 2A in literacy (more for just reading) etc etc etc, I couldn't care less about those hundreds of 5 year old level 4 children but just wanted some advice. Some people were genuinely helpful!

My DS is one of 5 children that were moved into Y2 instead of Y1 and no not a mixed class in the same way as most schools, they are 5 extremely able children and mature as well which is why they were moved (there are other reasons also). It is really nice that actually all the 5 mums and DCs were close friends anyway so we do have other people we can talk to without feeling awkward. Some of the other Y1 parents do talk about us as they were upset the school did this as felt it was a slight on them but what they fail to remember is that those 5 children need extra help to challenge them etc so the school are trying to help them in the way they feel best.

I guess I am not G&T as I don't really understand what ladyhawkstone is talking about and can't quite understand who she is taking a dig at?!

Sorry I should say the DS was one of 5 in a year group of 30 so a very small group which made it very noticable especially when they weren't in the Y1 assemblies and parents events etc so we could not avoid talking about it as we are asked all the time.

I found there was a very well known poster, no longer here, that uses the gt board as a place to say to almost any poster who came on that their child was not gifted, and the parent was making stuff up. Of course though that well known posters child was a genius. A lot of people came on to get advice, and Yes, they may have been wrong, but this poster was just plain nasty. I could see that it put a lot of people off the board.

Sorry, My point was, there wad a lot of competitiveness within the gt set. Not just from patents of non gt kids. It seemed like you weren't allowed to raise the possibility of your child being gt unless you had had a full assessment already done before posting.

When i first posted to ask about my dd possibly being gifted i got a barrage of abuse, i was proved right though...

My point exactly!

It is a tricky one. I think it's a bit like allergies (stay with me!) There are really allergies which are a serious big deal, but they often get submerged in the tide of "Islington Intolerances" There are properly "gifted and talented" children- but there are far more bright little buttons who show an early aptitude for something like talking, or pretend games or reading who get their parents all excited, but level off when their cohort catches up. The second category make it difficult for the very few truly gifted.

And there are, sadly, some things that people say that bring out the irony, or sneer, or amusement or raised eyebrows " I'm so worried that the teacher won't be able to find anything to teach him" (of a 5 year old!) "Obviouly we're looking at private school" "He gets so bored- that's why he set fire to his desk" "I'm worried he won't be stretched" And the classic ones about "He just isn't interested in sharing, or playing- he just thinks the children in his class are silly and tells them" or words to that effect.

I was thinking that max 25% of Reception/y1 is pure phonics or numeracy, which means that 75% is mixed with other types of activities & skill set acquisition, especially play & socialisation, which makes me feel a bit about the "But My child will be so bored!" threads.

Maybe MNHQ needs to clarify who should & shouldn't be allowed to post here. Most MNers would favour only the most amazingly exceptional child to be possibly described as "Gifted", but unless MNHQ backs that up, a kind of bullying culture about the label will probably persist.

I think seeker has 'hit the nail on the head'.
ragged I think the term 'gifted and talented' is an unfortunate one that can immediately put backs up- especially as it covers so many children in its current definition.
I don't think it is appropriate to ban people from posting on G&T as everyone has a different idea of what G&T is. Is it top 5/10% of a class or genius levels?
Definition depends on who you talk to!

A lot of people in the country want to think all children are the same and should be educated in an identical school. Whenever I say well take them out of that school and send them to the primary part of a very selective academic day school (where ther very bright children of course thrive) because that is elitist and pro-private schooling that never goes down very well at all.

The bottom line is that some children have loads of advantages at birth from good looks to good health to very high IQ and some have virtually none. Most of course just have a mixture. It is very unfair but life is unfair. I think the word gift is misused in the state school system as they can simply nominate say the top 10% of the school as gifted when in fact they may have an IQ of 115 but everyone in the school has a 100 IQ. It should be an objective test.

Part of life and working life is about being the best and competing with others and sometimes schools do not prepare children well enough for that.

I think 'gifted' for some xenia is just the good fortune of birth. A lot of potentially 'gifted' children do not get a look in through no fault of their own. As you say - life is not fair.

"A lot of people in the country want to think all children are the same and should be educated in an identical school. Whenever I say well take them out of that school and send them to the primary part of a very selective academic day school (where ther very bright children of course thrive) because that is elitist and pro-private schooling that never goes down very well at all."

It's not because it is elitist and pro- private schooling that it doesn't go down very well. It's because you present it as a) the only possible option and any other choice would be damaging to the child b) an option which is available to every one and c) you couple it with deeply unpleasant judgements about the children in state schools. You then tend to follow it with a self satisfied para about how well your own children are doing/have done.

The problem with this forum is that there is no such thing as a diagnosis of "giftedness." It is not a medically recognised condition. It is what you want it to be - doing brilliantly at school; an IQ over a certain level; an IQ over a certain level plus difficulty getting on with your peers; an IQ over a certain level and boredom at school; an IQ over a certain level and certain sensitivities; an IQ over a certain level and difficult behaviour, which may or may not be entirely connected to boredom and/or sensory sensitivities; an IQ over a certain level and inability to communicate your talents in a school environment/serious underperformance. Of course you aren't going to get helpful advice if you come on here making blanket statements, assuming that all other people who have children who share your child's IQ are going to have had similar experiences just because of an IQ score or because of academic performance in one particular school and getting cross when people with different experiences comment. Nor are you going to get helpful advice if you assume all your child's problems can be explained away as gifted behaviours which have to be tolerated and have to be causing your child immense difficulties which can never be cured or coped with by the child without serious help, and on no account is anyone allowed to suggest that if the difficulties are that severe, they may be more than a natural side-effect of giftedness. A lot of the problems relate more to a personality type or other neurological quirks than an IQ score, so it might be better to focus on the gifted personality when asking questions about difficulties, than on the IQ, so as not to irritate those people whose children have exceptionally high IQs, perform brilliantly at school, but who don't have gifted personalities. It is certainly unproven that having a gifted personality/neurological profile (for want of a better word) is hugely useful to society or whether some of its less useful aspects can be ameliorated and more useful aspects enhanced so that pure IQ can be tapped into. There are plenty of people who feel that more can be done to help the person with a gifted neurological profile fit in better and contribute more, but they haven't achieved an officially recognised diagnosis of a neurological condition, yet.

My DD was on the Gifted and Talented Register!!!!

However she was looked down on by some of the other parents as she came under the Talented for dance . . . Apparently that's not the same :D

I have 2 kids who are 8.5 and 10, they are in the same classroom as they attend a v.small rural school.
My dd 10 is very very bright, definitely not sure about the term gifted,i would say academic rather than gifted,am not going to list acheivments just suffice to say that she is top of the class.
My ds is dyslexic,didn't read a word till 7 and would struggle with writing ,getting himself organised and although bright would struggle academically.( a lot)
two points ,firstly that is the way they were both made, they are both happy wonderful kids ,its not fabulous or awful parenting on my part( am lone parent) it just is.
Secondly too be honest my dd is fine, she gets bored, oh well she will probably get through it. I buy her books and stuff so she can follow things up at home,( currently gcse history!) but being very bright is not a difficulty its a bloody blessing!
I also promote my sons dyslexia as who he is ,and how imaginative and clever he is ,but you know what he does need extra help,he is not just bored, often he has no idea whats going on ,how to do the work. He does need extra support, so he can read and write enough to hold down a job.

Tbh, people's attitude mainly depends on whether you have older dc or not. My youngest child's Y4 class contains lots of little precious hot-house flower only or oldest children, who are endlessly comparing notes and fretting about every imaginable detail.

Meanwhile I have three older dc in secondary and have learnt long ago that unless your child is falling seriously behind in a way that they won't readily be able to catch up on, or unless they are so unhappy and frustrated that they can't participate in the class in any meaningful way, then really it will all come out in the wash.

Being on ORT level 8 when you're in Reception is fine if your child enjoys reading and you enjoy working wtih him. BUt it is not a predictor of straight A* at GCSE, an Oxbridge First and a partnership in a Magic Circle law firm by the age of 35. Conversely, being on ORT Stage 3 books when everyone else is reading the Magic Key fluently will not condemn your child to a lifetime as a crack-selling dropout.

It also doesn't matter that much if the teacher hasn't quite got a handle on your child's full potential. Your child's education will not be irretrievably damaged if he can actually read Roald Dahl at home but gets sent home with an intermediate-stage ORT reading book, or he knows all his tables and associated division facts, but homework consists of a sheet of 'Revise your 2x 5x and 10x table' questions.

Once you've been round the blocks of the education system a few times, the finer details of first time parents fretting about the levelling of reading books or whatever does tend to make you glaze over a bit. FWIW, GCSE is not a massively high hurdle, most children who are reasonably bright and at least averagely well-taught will be able to score a full house of reasonably top grades. Once you know that, you tend not to get so aerated about the minor details about what goes on further down the system.

PollyMorfic - I don't think all parents take that pragmatic viewpoint. Top passes at GCSE and A-level are not necessarily so much what they are bothered about, it seems to me, as a feeling of abject panic that their potential saviour of the world who should be destined to solve the problem of global warming is instead going to be confined to working in a Magic Circle Law Firm.

I have never felt that I cannot talk about DS (I generally think there are far more interesting things to mention though). Other parents ask what he is doing and I ask about their children. We know all children are different and who is a great artist, great actor, sports person, natural leader, great friend, gentle soul....... These parents are my friends, if asked questions I answer honestly, and they can ask lots of questions! I certainly have never felt jealousy from others directed at me, the other parents I know are understandably confident of their own child's abilities (and he is in a very bright cohort).

I occasionally think on this forum that there is an emphasis on the idea that "gifted" has to be linked with other issues. Rabbitstews posts certainly keep me entertained (and I feel there is alot of truth).

I agree with " Nor are you going to get helpful advice if you assume all your child's problems can be explained away as gifted behaviours which have to be tolerated and have to be causing your child immense difficulties which can never be cured or coped with by the child without serious help, and on no account is anyone allowed to suggest that if the difficulties are that severe, they may be more than a natural side-effect of giftedness. A lot of the problems relate more to a personality type or other neurological quirks than an IQ score" .............

"It is certainly unproven that having a gifted personality/neurological profile (for want of a better word) is hugely useful to society or whether some of its less useful aspects can be ameliorated and more useful aspects enhanced so that pure IQ can be tapped into."

I occasionally think that a "high IQ" can be used as an excuse for certain behavioural traits where the child may benefit from help that would enable them to fit in better. Though I would argue if anything people on this forum can actually be better at suggesting personality traits maybe linked to issues other than "giftedness" than other forums I have been on.

And some children are just plain naughty , but their parents won't accept that.

I agree with most of the posters on here, and also in RL I have not encountered jealousy for seriously gifted children. In my daughter's dance school there are 2 girls who are seriously talented and have joined the Royal Ballet's JA last year, everyone looks up to them and I have never heard anything unkind said about either of them, in fact quite the opposite.

The worst comments I have ever heard in RL, which shocked me actually, were from the huddled group of "pushy parents" in one of my children's class, who cannot get over the fact that some clearly unhothoused children have overtaken theirs by quite a stretch and feel extremely resentful about it.

I agree that there is a nasty streak of competitiveness on these threads. Also there is the regular stream of people whose dcs have been deemed G&T by the school and they don't recognise it for what it is - just a way of saying that at that particular moment their dc is in the top 10% - of that school. Those posters always get squashed. In RL it wouldn't happen - you'd just smile and nod - but on t'internet it seems fair game to bring someone back down to earth.

Agree with all of Seeker's posts - many of the G&T parents sound terribly condescending, and, dare I say it, almost unhinged at times.